A Separate Cantonese Republic???

[HKB]

I'm not "hiding" in a shell, like many of us have said, this "past" of yours is way too far back that it's irrelevant to care about it. And who knows what my great x 10 to the 20th grand father was? Han? Yue? or whatever else? That fact remains that those aboriginal canton people, whether or not there are still any of their alleles and genotypes left drifting around, have subsumed to the Chinese culture generation after generation, for many generations, for thousands of years. They ARE the Chinese, are PART of it, have melded with them (the CHinese people "Han/Hua" as a whole arose from the mixing of different races anyways) all that was then, this is now.

Your American proposition is atill ultimately impractical and unreasonable. America's position is too important now to be replaced with a fading race (it has always been important), and China's position now is also too important to care about an already faded race. Just like natural selection, extinct species don't need to come back like they do in Jurassic Park.

of course I'm sino-centric, I'm Chinese. And so are you, I assume. Don't give me that cantonese hard wash, your ancestors could possibly be of complete Han descent anyways, cos as you guys have said, the Chinese conquered the area and established their homes there and people from other provinces have moved there continuously for thousands of years. And white people are white-centric, blacks, black-centric, jews, jew-centric, and we're all earthling-centric, hopefully, if aliens come and attack earth.

[HKB]

The native americans are real americans, yes, but they are also americans in the sense that they are part of the modern america now. I mean, what if some of these people have forefathers who fought and died for the United States in previous wars, huh? if you REALLY want to seek the roots of things, the natives of america were from asia, so they're asians. lets have them returned to asia and create a country for them. better yet, all humans evolved out of Africa, so why don't we all go back there and establish an all human country or we can all get African citizenship.

[ppk]

c'mon sum, u never changed.

u dont trust stats? how are u going to convince others? tell them its all about ur personal feelings? and u are still circling around the 'good and bad moral issues'. but the things u are about to promote is not merely a moral issue. just to fulfill ur self righteous feelings u are asking everyone else to bent over? thats a bit too much.

[Sum Won]

ppk:
Likewise, you've never changed, always gearing yourself towards double standards, to fit the position of the Chinese, and support them even if they murdered a culture. Of course I don't trust statistics, for reasons stated in my last post.

HKB:
People in the US join the military for different reasons, not necessarily for some sense of patriotism. The Japanese Ni-Sei in WWII, had two different kinds of American soldiers: (1) Ones that wanted to prove they were as American as the other Americans. (2) Ones that just had to get [themselves and/or their relatives and loved ones] out of the concentration camp by any means. Whichever one anyone chooses, is up to the individual...
You can also replace "Concentration Camp" with "reservation", for the Native-Americans, because their conditions were just about the same (if not worse). Since WWII, many of the people who join the US Armed Forces, join for different reasons: retirement pensions, Montgomery GI Bill (paying off for college), job stability, debt help, etc... Everyone joins the military willingly in America (unless they were drafted, as in the VietNam War), however, of these people who willingly sign away their lives, it's not necessarily for patriotism.

The African citizenship idea, I believe would be pretty similar to the "World-Nation" I've also suggested in earlier posts, please scroll up for reference...
"...when aliens attack earth..." you hope for us to be "earthling-centric"? Once again, you set up a double-standard, in not even advocating the expansionist views of the Aliens. If they have enough technology to travel all this way to Earth, they most likely would possess enough power to wipe us all away, so I guess this means that we should all kneel on our knees, and welcome our new lords, right?

Not to misconstrue however --as many of you do-- I'm not saying we shouldn't go down without a fight, just not out of "earthling centrism": It's out of the hatred for "expansionism and assimilation" of any sort.

[ppk]

murder of a culture? wadever. dun tell me the bach viets had not assimilated or destroyed other cultures around them. if it applies to all ancient cultures and races, dun simply bring out the chinese or americans as target boards and whin over it.

[Sum Won]

So now it's the "he did it too, so I can do it" defense? Well, "if he jumped off a cliff, would you?"
Sure, other cultures have done it. However, can you prove your so-called "Bach Viet" did as well? Have you ever looked into the Southern Tribes' societies' structure, or even just their militaries' structure, and how they evolved through further interaction with China? Obviously not, because you're too sinocentric to look into other cultures.

[ppk]

no, its not a defense, u misinterpreted it. its a fact. wad i am saying is that its too complicated to trace back so we respect history as it is. while u hit on the chinese and americans, how far can u be sure the bach viets actually lived in canton area from the very beginning? u can decide your own point of history to begin with, to ur own advantage, so can others. u want to decide the history of cantonese to begin with the bach viets, we decide it to begin with qin dynasty. definitions, nomemclatures, wadever u call it, we all have our valid points. frankly speaking i am not a classicist who believe the past is always better and we should always try to go back to the old ways(thats why althou i respected confucious i never liked him). i would definitely say the present is much better than the past. if its just because u dont get a recognition from other cantonese u dun have to resort to this. if u think going back to the old ways will help u out, its probably gonna dissappoint u. this whole thing started bcos of ur personal reasons, i supposed, so bring out the big banner of 'revivng a culture' etc etc. u dun want to practice double standards, please do carry on with reviving the cultures bach viets assimilated to prove your sincerity.

[Sum Won]

ppk, did I ever say I wanted to go back into the past? No! I've reiterated this point many times over. Does reviving a culture necessarily mean going back in time? No! Kang You Wei reinterpreted Confucian thoughts to fit his times, for the need of the Manchurian government to stay in power. Even though the Empress Dowager Ci Xi (the "Old Dragon" as her enemies called her), banished him and others in the Hundred-Day Reform...

You are correct in stating the fact that tracing the history of the "Bach Viets", and in this case the "Proto-Cantonese" is an arduous, and turmoil-filled job, however, this is suppose to be some lame excuse to set your minds and peace and just ignore it? "Respect History" you say? It seems you'd more rather preserve "Falsehoods", and preserve "Misconceptions", than you would History.

[ppk]

'ppk, did I ever say I wanted to go back into the past? No! I've reiterated this point many times over. Does reviving a culture necessarily mean going back in time? No! Kang You Wei reinterpreted Confucian thoughts to fit his times, for the need of the Manchurian government to stay in power. Even though the Empress Dowager Ci Xi (the "Old Dragon" as her enemies called her), banished him and others in the Hundred-Day Reform...

You are correct in stating the fact that tracing the history of the "Bach Viets", and in this case the "Proto-Cantonese" is an arduous, and turmoil-filled job, however, this is suppose to be some lame excuse to set your minds and peace and just ignore it? "Respect History" you say? It seems you'd more rather preserve "Falsehoods", and preserve "Misconceptions", than you would History. '

when did i said i wanted to do that?

then as u have accused me of, u are doing the same, reinterpreting the past to ur own advantage, creating new 'falsehoods' and 'misconception'.

u and i can trace it as much as we like. but not using it for ur own agenda. only we do it selflessly then we can find out the truth. we can find out whether there is a genuine culture of their own or not, or did they ever mix around or even assimilated other cultures, or did they embraced the chinese culture willingly or was forced to do it, no problem wadever it is. but leave history as it is. we correct the wrong thoeries, timelines, events that actually took place etc, in the books, but leave them in the classroom. we can announce our findings, even try to change certain things in actual life if they dont affect much. like maybe the birthdates of certain historical figures. example if the bible is absolutely right then jesus should be born at least 4 yrs earlier and it should be year 2007 by now. but not something that will affect the identity, social, polictical and economical status of 1/5 of the world population.

[ppk]

I'm sorry, I'd usually be offended by your first sentence, but I couldn't help but laugh at what'd followed...

"Selfless"?
Chinese + history= selflessness????

That's a funny equation! That's like saying Europeans never went around colonizing other places (since you so hate the fact I only choose the Americans and Chinese exclusively).

Yeah, your origins aren't much anything, because they don't stop the world from revolving. Funny though, because it was always a big thing to your people under foreign occupation...

[ppk]

who is the guy above posting under my name?

thats your own equation, dont stuff words into my mouth. applies to u too, 'non-chinese+history=selflessness'? answer for yourself.

i traced my origin better than u in any aspect, fren, so keep that comment to yourself.

[ppk]

anyway, if u just want to play the racists card, that anything chinese-related is not worth believing, instead of studying them on a rather neutral standpoint, anyone can use that trick on you too.

[Sum Won]

"Racist cards"? I was never the one who used racial genetics/physical features (i.e. "Epicanthic folds for the eyes, attributed to non-Orientals"), to support my views. Nor am I the one who deemed cultures as "higher and lower". Proposing a "Seperate Cantonese Republic" doesn't necessarily mean it's racist. Apparently, you still don't understand the purpose for the Republic...

[ppk]

it is a fact that different race have different genetic features, so why is stating that being 'racists'? there is nothing wrong when we used these to find out which race is reated to which. only when u try to exaggerate these physical differences to a 'who's better than who' scenario then thats where the racists part sets in.

a higher or lower culture means some cultures are more advanced than others at a given time frame, its a relative comparism, not an absolute one. the standard of measurement is rather simple, those who are using newer techs and newer tools at certain period of time, or had discovered certain academic advancement, they are the higher culture. its no secret that some advanced faster than other at certain point of history but slower than others at another point of history. all depends of the time frame chosen. try not to nitpick, u wont be successful.

looking back at ur own proposal, the very basic reason for a cantonese republic is that (maybe)they have 'a different culture' and a 'different racial composition'. thats pretty obvious, isnt it?

[Sum Won]

If you'd like to lump yourself in some stereotypical role, go ahead and use racial profiling upon yourself, so the next time someone labels you as Japanese, I suppose the profile that you've set up for yourself, would make you Japanese.

When you compare cultures and give it a value, then that is racism. So a would you say that a crab is superior to an ant, for its size, when in actuality, both of their seperate body parts have evolved to adapt to their environment?

Now, looking back at earlier arguements, the reason for a seperate Cantonese Republic, was because, racist bigots such as yourself, have put a lower value on culture.