1. good point, this makes cantonese distinctively different from the aborigins, they are different, get it? go ask any cantonese whether he counts his ancestry based on his paternal line or maternal line.
3. cos they didnt acquire a chinese citizenship in the first place, understand? they are still, a foreigner. if they arent even chinese, by race or nationality, how are they supposed to be accepted as a cantonese? remember, a cantonese identity only works under a 'chinese background'.
4. meeting any one of the 4 requirements, my friend, any one of the 4. dun have a linage book? he speak cantonese, his father is a cantonese, his grandfather is a cantonese(and automatically his great grandfather is a cantonese), and acknowledged himself as a chinese cantonese, good enuff. anyway, u cant prove anything else too, with or without the linage books. are u telling me without the linage books it makes them automatically 'aborigins'?
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--Regarding the Mongolians, what makes you think the Mongolians didn't have any sense of fate for themselves, as to have China and Russia decide it for them?
if your ideas of mongolia was based on this website u posted, then u are misinformed. the mongols were nomads divided into multiple factions with no fixed locations until genghis khan united them. the mongols are overlords of the manchus ever since the state of jin(of the jurchens, ancestors of the manchus. manchus were of jurchen origins and called themselves 'later jin') was defeated by the mongols during southern song dynasty. the jin nobles were subdued and they sometimes intermarried the mongolian royals. after ming govt chased the mongols out of china, they are divided into multiple factions, and so are the jin nobles, separated into 3 main groups with numerous 'flags'(factions, some consisted of hundreds while some dozens. nurhaci, the first leader of qing dynasty started with only 30 warriors). as stated by that website, the mongols had around 3 centuries of civil war, between 2 major groups: the oirad and khalkha mongols.
most manchurian royals have mongolian blood in them since 1612ad. every emperor of the qing dynasty(except nurhaci) married the daughters of the strongest(and probably most supportive) mongolian factions and made her queen. concubines can be from other races, but queen is definitely mongolian. on the other hand, ard 50 manch princesses were married to mongolian royals. that website of yours did say the manchus 'officially take over' the halh princedom in 1691, but why? how? well this is the reason. the khalkha mongols, based in present rep. of mongolia, was defeated and somehow recognised the manchurian emperor as their 'cousins', sworn an oath and pledged alliance with the manchus, assisting them in the conquest of other factions. after the qing emperors conquered mongolia the factions are divided into the core factions and external factions(probably why inner and outer mongolia). the core were of majority and were those who supported the manchus. the externals were those who fought against the manchus. some of the oirad mongols moved westwards into kirghiz and kazakh territories during 1620 and became excellent horsemen for the russians. qing govt dd not exercise direct control over mongolia. they still have their own khans.
while qing were busy fighting the oirad mongol, altan khan(1507-83) of the tumed clan gradually grew in power, defeating other oirad clans and extend their influence into tibet and xinjiang. around 1680, the ambitions of altan khan was succeeded by galdan khan(1632-97) of the dzungar region. he tried to unify mongol and take it away from the qing govt. he gradually lead his men into khalkha regions. in 1682 he expanded into kazakh. in 1688, the khalkha mongols complained to qing govt and a war followed. galdan was defeated by a manchu-chinese force and followers fled to xinjiang, which lead to xinjiang being conquered later on when the manchus pursued the 'rebels'. mongolia came under manchurian control. russia and china are now neighbours and had several conflicts in between until 1727. russia and manchu china concluded the treaty of khiakta that year, delimiting the border between china and mongolia that exists in large part today.
after 1911 revolution in china, the mongols felt that they pledged alliance with the manchus, not the han chinese, and therefore wanted an independent state(under russian support) in 1912 or 1913, together with tibet(under british support). from 1922-28 mongolia was actually controlled by russia troops stationed there without consent from the chinese govt. hence there is nothing wrong in saying that the chinese and russians decided the size of their country.
A Separate Cantonese Republic???
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Sum Won
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
The Chinese and Russians were major influences in the politics and history of Mongolia. However, the "Treaty of Kyakhta", was established, as an agreement between the Russians and the Manchurians, as to where their borders were. At that time, as you described yourself, the Manchurians were the ones in control.
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Sum Won
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
1. Remember the dual-origins modern Cantonese have. You've constantly been ignoring the aborigin's side. Just because the modern Cantonese accept Chinese culture, doesn't mean there is no way they won't accept aborigin culture.
3. Well then, you should show every "minority" in Hong Kong and Macau how to obtain citizenship, since that's the only thing they're missing in your requirements.
5. Meeting any 1/4? Well, the minorities in Macau and Hong Kong who meet at least two requirements of yours, aren't even accepted by you, because they don't have citizenship.
One thing about you sinocentrics that never ceases to amuse me, is that you'll always take a statement, like "lineage books aren't trustworthy, and not all Cantonese have them", and add your own little speculations to become something outrageous as "without lineage, these people aren't Cantonese".
3. Well then, you should show every "minority" in Hong Kong and Macau how to obtain citizenship, since that's the only thing they're missing in your requirements.
5. Meeting any 1/4? Well, the minorities in Macau and Hong Kong who meet at least two requirements of yours, aren't even accepted by you, because they don't have citizenship.
One thing about you sinocentrics that never ceases to amuse me, is that you'll always take a statement, like "lineage books aren't trustworthy, and not all Cantonese have them", and add your own little speculations to become something outrageous as "without lineage, these people aren't Cantonese".
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ppk
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
so it was manchurian in control, so the west had never encountered the chinese, they were just meeting up with manchurians, right? there was no sino-russian war nor sino-japanese war, there was a manchurian-russian war, a manchurian-japanese war, is that what u are saying? so the boxers' revolution was between manchurian and the west, so why the west attacked chinese instead of the manchus? so why was hong kong and macau returned to the chinese instead of manchurian? there is this chinese saying, 'eyes open but talked blindly', i think it fits u quite well.
have u heard of the term 'manchurian and chinese are a family'? this was a policy proposed and implemented by the manchurian emperors of qing dynasty for more than 200yrs. they see themselves as chinese. u still dont get it do u? all regional differences within china are internal affairs, between chinese, not between foreigners and chinese.
1. would u think a group of people will accept a 'culture' that they dont even know about at all, more than 2000yrs back, and are relatively backwards compare to what they have now? and its not just 'modern' cantonese who accepted chinese culture. cantonese practiced chinese culture(but not limited to chinese culture) since the first day they appear on chinese land.
3. well, its up to them to do so, not me to tell them. if they wanna be cantonese, they got to be 'chinese' first. if they cant do it racially(since they are caucasians or other 'minorities' as suggested by u), do it officially, take up a chinese citizenship. look at it from a asian point of view, its not that u speak english, u accept western culture, u automatically becomes an englishman or an american. u need a passport or a green card, isnt that obvious?. i am surprised u keep on arguing on this point.
4. reasons stated above, so resistance is futile. first of all, they are not chinese in anyway, not politically as emphasized by me(no documents) nor ethically as emphsized by u(not ethnical chinese). so no way they can be cantonese since cantonese is a sub group under chinese. please read my post properly, i already said my requirements apply to chinese only. u are not born as an english and u dont carry a uk passport, do u claim urself an englishman just because u speak english? please answer.
its a fact that u cant prove anything either with or without a linage book. and its just a question for u anyway, not a claim or a speculation.
nevermind, for ur sake, i'll add another requirement. this is a fundamental requirement that applies to all cantonese and i believe no cantonese will disagree with it. all cantonese will meet this requirement:
5. cantonese have to be chinese, either, if not both, in race and/or citizenship.
happy now?
have u heard of the term 'manchurian and chinese are a family'? this was a policy proposed and implemented by the manchurian emperors of qing dynasty for more than 200yrs. they see themselves as chinese. u still dont get it do u? all regional differences within china are internal affairs, between chinese, not between foreigners and chinese.
1. would u think a group of people will accept a 'culture' that they dont even know about at all, more than 2000yrs back, and are relatively backwards compare to what they have now? and its not just 'modern' cantonese who accepted chinese culture. cantonese practiced chinese culture(but not limited to chinese culture) since the first day they appear on chinese land.
3. well, its up to them to do so, not me to tell them. if they wanna be cantonese, they got to be 'chinese' first. if they cant do it racially(since they are caucasians or other 'minorities' as suggested by u), do it officially, take up a chinese citizenship. look at it from a asian point of view, its not that u speak english, u accept western culture, u automatically becomes an englishman or an american. u need a passport or a green card, isnt that obvious?. i am surprised u keep on arguing on this point.
4. reasons stated above, so resistance is futile. first of all, they are not chinese in anyway, not politically as emphasized by me(no documents) nor ethically as emphsized by u(not ethnical chinese). so no way they can be cantonese since cantonese is a sub group under chinese. please read my post properly, i already said my requirements apply to chinese only. u are not born as an english and u dont carry a uk passport, do u claim urself an englishman just because u speak english? please answer.
its a fact that u cant prove anything either with or without a linage book. and its just a question for u anyway, not a claim or a speculation.
nevermind, for ur sake, i'll add another requirement. this is a fundamental requirement that applies to all cantonese and i believe no cantonese will disagree with it. all cantonese will meet this requirement:
5. cantonese have to be chinese, either, if not both, in race and/or citizenship.
happy now?
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Sum Won
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
Yeah, when things are going alright under the Qing dynasty, it's "滿漢一家" ("Manchu-Han are a family"), and when the revolution sprouts around, it's "打倒滿清走狗" ("Down with the Manchu-Qing 'running dogs'"). If you were really one family, you would've said "Down with imperialism", but since the revolutionaries put race into the context, rather than government system, the Manchus and Hans weren't a family.
1. This is exactly what "Red Sultan" and I were addressing, in earlier posts. You haven't even given the aborigin culture a chance. No one wants to research it, because they're happy with their own little lives, afraid of their roots, rather than confronting it.
Of course the proto-Cantonese gradually accepted the culture! It was practically enforced upon them at gunpoint.
3. Up to them? Before 1997, tons of Indians and Pakistanis in Hong Kong, were about to be left citizen-less in either China or Hong Kong. The British had to implement plans to give them citizenship. It's not up to them, it's up to the politicians and the representatives in Hong Kong's local parliament to decide the standards for citizenship. Even if these people wanted to apply for Hong Kong citizenship, it'd be hard. Who knows how hard it'd be for these people to even apply for PRC citizenship!
4. If citizenship (a requirement of yours), is all they're missing then why don't you help these poor souls trying to be as Cantonese as they can, get their citizenship? What, you can't stand the idea that a Portuguese in Macau legitimately claiming that he's Cantonese? Or a Briton, Indian, or Pakistani in Hong Kong doing the same?
A new requirement just for my sake? I'm flatterred!
5. You have to be Chinese, in order to be Cantonese? That again is one-sided, because you are again ignoring the fact that modern-day Cantonese have aborigin lineage as well. So race-wise, these people couldn't be 100% Chinese. Hence, they wouldn't fit your category of being Cantonese. Citizenship-wise, you haven't even allowed for a Cantonese Republic to form, and set up its government institutions. So to have to stick with Chinese citizenship only, would be completely unfair, for those who actually do want a Republic set up.
1. This is exactly what "Red Sultan" and I were addressing, in earlier posts. You haven't even given the aborigin culture a chance. No one wants to research it, because they're happy with their own little lives, afraid of their roots, rather than confronting it.
Of course the proto-Cantonese gradually accepted the culture! It was practically enforced upon them at gunpoint.
3. Up to them? Before 1997, tons of Indians and Pakistanis in Hong Kong, were about to be left citizen-less in either China or Hong Kong. The British had to implement plans to give them citizenship. It's not up to them, it's up to the politicians and the representatives in Hong Kong's local parliament to decide the standards for citizenship. Even if these people wanted to apply for Hong Kong citizenship, it'd be hard. Who knows how hard it'd be for these people to even apply for PRC citizenship!
4. If citizenship (a requirement of yours), is all they're missing then why don't you help these poor souls trying to be as Cantonese as they can, get their citizenship? What, you can't stand the idea that a Portuguese in Macau legitimately claiming that he's Cantonese? Or a Briton, Indian, or Pakistani in Hong Kong doing the same?
A new requirement just for my sake? I'm flatterred!
5. You have to be Chinese, in order to be Cantonese? That again is one-sided, because you are again ignoring the fact that modern-day Cantonese have aborigin lineage as well. So race-wise, these people couldn't be 100% Chinese. Hence, they wouldn't fit your category of being Cantonese. Citizenship-wise, you haven't even allowed for a Cantonese Republic to form, and set up its government institutions. So to have to stick with Chinese citizenship only, would be completely unfair, for those who actually do want a Republic set up.
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ppk
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
1. u should rephrase, its not me alone. most, if not, all cantonese wont do it. u believe in liberty? thats the choice of the cantonese people, including me. u wanna force ur idea on us?
2. what are u talking? when u apply for citizenship, its up to the host country to decide whether to accept or not, its the same everywhere. they are british subjects in the first place. if britain dun accept them, exiled them, throw their own subjects away, its not the problem of the chinese govt. since when did china became the international refugee camp? does your country 'always' accept outcasts from other countries?
3. up to them to choose, be a brit without a place in britain, go back to their home town, or try for a prc citizenship. if they proved that they do have to stay in hongkong, they will get a resident permit as a foreigner. even a green card in america requires u to stay there for a few yrs.
4. dun change my words, i said they are not chinese citizens nor ethnic chinese, citizenship is only part of it. in fact they dont accept and practice chinese culture as well(yeah, u are talking about 'culture', arent u?). again, just speaking english alone wont make u an englishman. do i have to repeat myself for u everytime?
5. yes, a new one which all cantonese will fit in together with one or more of the previous 4. one-sided? i am a cantonese, is it up to u to decide who i am or up to me to decide? can i decide ur race or ur citizenship for u? u are simply ridiculous. and i 'believe' all cantonese will agree with me, not u.
2. what are u talking? when u apply for citizenship, its up to the host country to decide whether to accept or not, its the same everywhere. they are british subjects in the first place. if britain dun accept them, exiled them, throw their own subjects away, its not the problem of the chinese govt. since when did china became the international refugee camp? does your country 'always' accept outcasts from other countries?
3. up to them to choose, be a brit without a place in britain, go back to their home town, or try for a prc citizenship. if they proved that they do have to stay in hongkong, they will get a resident permit as a foreigner. even a green card in america requires u to stay there for a few yrs.
4. dun change my words, i said they are not chinese citizens nor ethnic chinese, citizenship is only part of it. in fact they dont accept and practice chinese culture as well(yeah, u are talking about 'culture', arent u?). again, just speaking english alone wont make u an englishman. do i have to repeat myself for u everytime?
5. yes, a new one which all cantonese will fit in together with one or more of the previous 4. one-sided? i am a cantonese, is it up to u to decide who i am or up to me to decide? can i decide ur race or ur citizenship for u? u are simply ridiculous. and i 'believe' all cantonese will agree with me, not u.
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Sum Won
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
1. You are correct. Am I forcing you? It's your will to read this thread and ever response in it. I surely didn't force you now. However, you nor most others, don't even allow for an opportunity for existence, because you're afraid of the outcome.
3.
Did I say that "Hong Kong was supposed to be a refugee camp"? No!
First, you say that these people have to acquire citizeznship,
My resonse in December 25, 2002:
"Well then, you should show every 'minority' in Hong Kong and Macau how to obtain citizenship, since that's the only thing they're missing in your requirements."
Your immediate response:
"well, its up to them to do so, not me to tell them..."
Before you last response, you gave me the impression, that this was solely their fault for not having citizenship. Now that you've clarified things however, and have noted that it's the government, that decides (which means things are out of their control in obtaining the citizenship) I ask whether or not you consider these people as Cantonese if they'd claim to be, as long as they "attempted" citizenship?
4. Apparently you haven't been to the right parts of Macau or Hong Kong. Why don't you go check it out, so you can stop repeating yourself?
5. It's your decision to give up your free will to someone else. To make a note I'm not the one deciding for you. I'm merely judging your definition of "Being Cantonese", as you have judged me on the same subject (by outrightly saying that I'm not Cantonese).
3.
Did I say that "Hong Kong was supposed to be a refugee camp"? No!
First, you say that these people have to acquire citizeznship,
My resonse in December 25, 2002:
"Well then, you should show every 'minority' in Hong Kong and Macau how to obtain citizenship, since that's the only thing they're missing in your requirements."
Your immediate response:
"well, its up to them to do so, not me to tell them..."
Before you last response, you gave me the impression, that this was solely their fault for not having citizenship. Now that you've clarified things however, and have noted that it's the government, that decides (which means things are out of their control in obtaining the citizenship) I ask whether or not you consider these people as Cantonese if they'd claim to be, as long as they "attempted" citizenship?
4. Apparently you haven't been to the right parts of Macau or Hong Kong. Why don't you go check it out, so you can stop repeating yourself?
5. It's your decision to give up your free will to someone else. To make a note I'm not the one deciding for you. I'm merely judging your definition of "Being Cantonese", as you have judged me on the same subject (by outrightly saying that I'm not Cantonese).
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ppk
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
1. thats a very subjective judgement u are imposing on all cantonese, and some may take it as an insult. everybody has their own reasons. chinese saying, dont swing the pole and sweep everyone into the water, which is, avoid making sweeping statements.
2., 3. thats right. they have to acquire citizenship, if they are not ethnic chinese. how to obtain citizenship can always be learned at the chinese immigration office, its up to the individuals to find out. they cannot claim cantonese without a chinese background.
4. i have been to hong kong and macau multiple times. please be specific which part u are talking about.
5. then i am not giving it up. simple. to me, trying to get away from the chinese background automatically render u a non-cantonese.
2., 3. thats right. they have to acquire citizenship, if they are not ethnic chinese. how to obtain citizenship can always be learned at the chinese immigration office, its up to the individuals to find out. they cannot claim cantonese without a chinese background.
4. i have been to hong kong and macau multiple times. please be specific which part u are talking about.
5. then i am not giving it up. simple. to me, trying to get away from the chinese background automatically render u a non-cantonese.
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winner
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
Yeah, after reading these posts and not saying anything for so long, I just couldn't bear it anymore.
If this Sum Won character is Cantonese, he must have been raised in a foreign country, or he's crazy, otherwise he is definitely NOT cantonese and probably a Vietnamese guy, since he has tendencies to support/defend the Vietnamese. Could be one of those ethnic Cantonese raised in Vietnam too.
Fact is: I don't think he has ever addressed whether he is Cantonese or not. The way I see it, if you are not Cantonese, or at least not Chinese, you have no right to say anything about the definition of a Cantonese or the direction that the Cantonese people as a whole should take. We like to call this self-determination.
ppk said:
5. then i am not giving it up. simple. to me, trying to get away from the chinese background automatically render u a non-cantonese.
Anybody that is Cantonese can understand this simple statement.
I'm not sure about the other "lurkers" reading these messages. Some Cantonese might just be ignoring them, some might be just outright laughing at Sum Won's preposterous statements, and some like me are about to give up. I just feel bad for ppk for having to explain and show these Cantonese ideas over and over again.
If this Sum Won character is Cantonese, he must have been raised in a foreign country, or he's crazy, otherwise he is definitely NOT cantonese and probably a Vietnamese guy, since he has tendencies to support/defend the Vietnamese. Could be one of those ethnic Cantonese raised in Vietnam too.
Fact is: I don't think he has ever addressed whether he is Cantonese or not. The way I see it, if you are not Cantonese, or at least not Chinese, you have no right to say anything about the definition of a Cantonese or the direction that the Cantonese people as a whole should take. We like to call this self-determination.
ppk said:
5. then i am not giving it up. simple. to me, trying to get away from the chinese background automatically render u a non-cantonese.
Anybody that is Cantonese can understand this simple statement.
I'm not sure about the other "lurkers" reading these messages. Some Cantonese might just be ignoring them, some might be just outright laughing at Sum Won's preposterous statements, and some like me are about to give up. I just feel bad for ppk for having to explain and show these Cantonese ideas over and over again.
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ppk
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
winner,
there is a difference in defiition here.
in my understanding, to sum, a cantonese shared the same ancestry as a vietnamese, so he can call himself a cantonese all he want. he couldnt come up with a new name for the 'cantonese people' he's describing, or maybe, i guess, purposely not coming up with one so that he can mix them up.
to me, 'cantonese' only came after chinese acquired and named canton as 'canton'. in that case all cantonese are automatically chinese. in the days where borders and a sense of nationality doesnt really counts, the chinese were defined by both racial content and culture. in modern era where the boundaries of nations are more distinctive, they need a citizenship as well.
there is a difference in defiition here.
in my understanding, to sum, a cantonese shared the same ancestry as a vietnamese, so he can call himself a cantonese all he want. he couldnt come up with a new name for the 'cantonese people' he's describing, or maybe, i guess, purposely not coming up with one so that he can mix them up.
to me, 'cantonese' only came after chinese acquired and named canton as 'canton'. in that case all cantonese are automatically chinese. in the days where borders and a sense of nationality doesnt really counts, the chinese were defined by both racial content and culture. in modern era where the boundaries of nations are more distinctive, they need a citizenship as well.