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	<title>Chinese languages</title>
	<subtitle>Chinese languages</subtitle>
	<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/index.php" />
	<updated>2016-02-13T15:06:02+00:00</updated>

	<author><name><![CDATA[Chinese languages]]></name></author>
	<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/app.php/feed/topic/8714</id>

		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[xng]]></name></author>
		<updated>2016-02-13T15:05:12+00:00</updated>

		<published>2016-02-13T15:05:12+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=87459#p87459</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=87459#p87459"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Sampai&quot; in Penang]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div> However, none of them, including Taiwanese dict, have 牽掛 as tshian1-kua3. This came as a "shock" for me, as I always assume that is the "standard" pronunciation. May be that is Taiwanese influence upon my variant, my mom also says that tshian1-kua3 sounds more "correct" than khan1-kua3. Personally I feel that the latter sounds like doing divination.</div></blockquote>Taiwanese actors/actresses don't speak pure Hokkien just like Malaysian Chinese don't speak pure Hokkien.<br><br>The correct pronunciation spoken in Taiwanese songs by Hokkien experts are 'Khien Kua'.<br>Chien Kua is Mandarin pronunciation.<br><br>牽 has several pronunciation depending on usage.<br><br>牽手 is Khan Chiu (colloquial pronunciation)<br>牽牛 is Khan Gu <br>牽掛 is Khien Kua  (literary pronunciation)<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=6041">xng</a> — Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:05 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[xng]]></name></author>
		<updated>2016-02-13T15:06:02+00:00</updated>

		<published>2016-02-13T14:59:33+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=87458#p87458</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=87458#p87458"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Sampai&quot; in Penang]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div>I also hear <em class="text-italics">sim-tsi</em> all the time, including Korean. Taiwanese programmes may not always say the right thing, as things may change in Taiwan. Like 牽掛 - I dunno why it's pronounced <em class="text-italics">tshian-kua</em>...... Hm......</div></blockquote><br>see below<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=6041">xng</a> — Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:59 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[amhoanna]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-12-21T02:20:53+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-12-21T02:20:53+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=33894#p33894</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=33894#p33894"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Sampai&quot; in Penang]]></title>

		
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千掛  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green"><p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=7909">amhoanna</a> — Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:20 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[niuc]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-12-20T23:51:51+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-12-20T23:51:51+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=33891#p33891</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=33891#p33891"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Sampai&quot; in Penang]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div>I also hear <em class="text-italics">sim-tsi</em> all the time, including Korean. Taiwanese programmes may not always say the right thing, as things may change in Taiwan. Like 牽掛 - I dunno why it's pronounced <em class="text-italics">tshian-kua</em>...... Hm......</div></blockquote>Good observation, Aokh! 甚至 is sim7-tsi3 in some dictionaries I checked. However, none of them, including Taiwanese dict, have 牽掛 as tshian1-kua3. This came as a "shock" for me, as I always assume that is the "standard" pronunciation. May be that is Taiwanese influence upon my variant, my mom also says that tshian1-kua3 sounds more "correct" than khan1-kua3. Personally I feel that the latter sounds like doing divination.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=527">niuc</a> — Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:51 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[aokh1979]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-12-20T20:58:45+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-12-20T20:58:45+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=33885#p33885</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=33885#p33885"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Sampai&quot; in Penang]]></title>

		
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I also hear <em class="text-italics">sim-tsi</em> all the time, including Korean. Taiwanese programmes may not always say the right thing, as things may change in Taiwan. Like 牽掛 - I dunno why it's pronounced <em class="text-italics">tshian-kua</em>...... Hm......<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=5978">aokh1979</a> — Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:58 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[xng]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-12-19T04:41:05+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-12-19T04:41:05+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=33879#p33879</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=33879#p33879"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Sampai&quot; in Penang]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div>My father-in-law is of Eng-Ch'un descent, spent a number of years in Kedah, and now resides in Ipoh. He says <span style="font-size:120%;line-height:116%">甚至</span> <em class="text-italics">săm-chî</em>. I suspect the <em class="text-italics">săm</em> should really be <em class="text-italics">sim</em>, the former likely a corruption from Cantonese influence.</div></blockquote>Yes, you're correct, it is 'Sim Chi', I have watched enough taiwanese hokkien shows to verify this.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=6041">xng</a> — Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:41 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[SimL]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-09-08T11:26:58+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-09-08T11:26:58+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30372#p30372</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30372#p30372"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Sampai&quot; in Penang]]></title>

		
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Hi Andrew,<br><br>Indeed, the usage you are familiar with is how I use it. In my case, it goes even further, and the standard collocation in my case is "&lt;adjective&gt; ka puaN si" (= "to half dead").<br><br>E.g.:<br><br>- i gong ka puaN si (= "he's as stupid as hell")<br><br>- ca mE, wa kuaN ka puaN si (= "last night, I was as cold as hell")<br><br>Some other phrases I might use "ka" in are:<br><br>- ca mE, wa kuaN ka be tin-tang (= "last night, I was so cold that I couldn't move")<br><br>- ca mE, wa kuaN ka ti-ti cun (= "last night, I was so cold that I couldn't stop shivering")<br><br>- i co e kue teng ka bo lang e ciah (= "the cakes he makes are so hard that no-one can eat them")<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=977">SimL</a> — Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:26 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[AndrewAndrew]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-08-19T09:48:35+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-08-19T09:48:35+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30117#p30117</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30117#p30117"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Sampai&quot; in Penang]]></title>

		
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Perhaps I need some examples. I'm used to hearing people say "i gong ka ..." (he is so stupid that ... / he is stupid to the extent that ...), etc.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=7712">AndrewAndrew</a> — Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:48 am</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[aokh1979]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-08-19T07:20:42+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-08-19T07:20:42+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30108#p30108</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30108#p30108"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Sampai&quot; in Penang]]></title>

		
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Actually, there's a character in 康熙字典 for <em class="text-italics">ka</em>.<br><br>徦,至也。<br><br>Oh, I misunderstood Mark. Ha.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=5978">aokh1979</a> — Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:20 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Mark Yong]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-08-19T03:18:19+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-08-19T03:18:19+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30104#p30104</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30104#p30104"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Sampai&quot; in Penang]]></title>

		
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Andrew,<br><br>Strictly speaking, no. <em class="text-italics">ka</em> carries just the generic meaning of 'till', 'to', etc. <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">甚至</span> or <em class="text-italics">sampai</em> (to use the borrowed Malay term) has a specific meaning of "to the extent that / so much so that" (with an emphasis on the 'extent', hence <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">甚</span>).<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=418">Mark Yong</a> — Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:18 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[AndrewAndrew]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-08-18T13:28:36+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-08-18T13:28:36+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30093#p30093</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30093#p30093"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Sampai&quot; in Penang]]></title>

		
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Could one not just use 'ka' for 甚至?<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=7712">AndrewAndrew</a> — Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:28 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Ah-bin]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-08-18T13:21:57+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-08-18T13:21:57+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30092#p30092</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30092#p30092"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Sampai&quot; in Penang]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30092#p30092"><![CDATA[
I think it's mostly Ven. Dhammavuddho Thero who I've heard using it, but I think I did hear some young person on the podcast use it too, but I can't remember who. I'll listen out for it again....<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=1174">Ah-bin</a> — Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:21 pm</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[SimL]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-08-16T18:47:26+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-08-16T18:47:26+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30030#p30030</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30030#p30030"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Sampai&quot; in Penang]]></title>

		
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I was very curious about this, because I like to think of myself as coming from a thoroughly Baba family, but I was completely unaware of this borrowing.<br><br>I asked my parents on the weekend, and my dad confirmed the (very specific) usage that Ah-bin first gave, and which Mark confirmed. I mused to him that it was strange that I didn't know it at all, and my mother chimed in to confirm that - although she thoroughly mastered Penang Hokkien after she married my dad (and speaks it without an accent) - she too was not aware of this word at all (as a borrowed word into Penang Hokkien, of course she knows it as a Malay word). My father mused that it was rather old-fashioned, even in Baba usage, but I have no way of verifying this one way or the other.<br><br>Were the people who used it on the podcast all younger people, Ah-bin?<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=977">SimL</a> — Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:47 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Mark Yong]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-08-12T11:41:21+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-08-12T11:41:21+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=29980#p29980</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=29980#p29980"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Sampai&quot; in Penang]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=29980#p29980"><![CDATA[
I have regularly heard and used <em class="text-italics">kău-kā</em> in Penang, but in the context of <span style="font-size:120%;line-height:116%">到/至</span> "up to / until", not for the specific context of "to the extent of..." (where <em class="text-italics">sampai</em> is used).<br><br>My father-in-law is of Eng-Ch'un descent, spent a number of years in Kedah, and now resides in Ipoh. He says <span style="font-size:120%;line-height:116%">甚至</span> <em class="text-italics">săm-chî</em>. I suspect the <em class="text-italics">săm</em> should really be <em class="text-italics">sim</em>, the former likely a corruption from Cantonese influence.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=418">Mark Yong</a> — Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:41 am</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[AndrewAndrew]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-08-12T07:23:59+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-08-12T07:23:59+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=29978#p29978</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=29978#p29978"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Sampai&quot; in Penang]]></title>

		
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Might be more of a baba thing - I don't recall my family ever using the word. We would just say kau-ka.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=7712">AndrewAndrew</a> — Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:23 am</p><hr />
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