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	<title>Chinese languages</title>
	<subtitle>Chinese languages</subtitle>
	<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/index.php" />
	<updated>2010-09-17T01:27:27+00:00</updated>

	<author><name><![CDATA[Chinese languages]]></name></author>
	<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/app.php/feed/topic/664</id>

		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[papen]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-09-17T01:27:27+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-09-17T01:27:27+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30435#p30435</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30435#p30435"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Vietnamese is sino-tibetan Part 2]]></title>

		
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I just want to have a few words. i read this topic started from part 1 (i didn't even know there's part 2) and realized it started since 2004 and going to 2010. It's just unbelivable.  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green"><br><br>i'm a vietnamese and i don't know if it's true but today i tried to talk to my friends who's from GuanZhou. I just picked up Cantonese this few days and it's the 1st time i talked  in Cantonese (just some simple sentences and we're studying in America by the way) and he said he understood me perfectly and i got all the tones correct. Maybe because i learned Mandarin before. I don't know. Oh yea and by the way i'm original from Northern Vietnam but i born in southern. None in my family speaks Chinese and we use northern accent at home.<br><br>In my believe. Vietnamese and Cantonese have the same ancestor but now, Vietnamese is Vietnamese and Cantonese is Cantonese. I'm proud to be Vietnamese and don't want to link anything with Chinese or Khmer. And for myself, sometimes when people speak vietnamese i thought it's cantonese, and sometimes people speak cantonese i thought it's vietnamese. So i believe our languages came from the same ancient language.<br><br>p.s: sorry about the font, i typed with ping yin, then after a while i realized and turned it off so the font is kind of mess up. I don't want to retype it. so please bear with it.<br><br>and just for your information.There're many official discussion about bringing back Han yu (汉语 - Hán tự) in our education. Because of our abc writing, Many people can't understand Viet ancient literatures as well as understanding/using words wrongly including some language professors/news reporters/etc. And as someone who learn Chinese, it's really a headache to learn the vocabulary. For example: 飞机场. In Viet it's 场机飞. And if I want to shorten it. It's 机场 in Chinese but 场飞 in Vietnamese even though all the characters both Viet and Chinese as individual share the same meaning. And somehow, sometimes we share the same grammar such as "I'm not online" which translates 我不online ,or 我没有online. Both can be understand in Vietnamese and Chinese but not English I not online - I don't have online - I don't exist online. it sounds funny.  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing"><br><br>even for 起床 (wake up), Viet uses 睡起 or 觉起 instead . How can it be a Chinese dialect when there's a huge different in words order and using??<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=7896">papen</a> — Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:27 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[xng]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-03-21T21:08:38+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-03-21T21:08:38+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=28275#p28275</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=28275#p28275"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Vietnamese is sino-tibetan Part 2]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div>hello guys,<br><br>I am Teochew Vietnamese or Hoa people in Vietnam.<br></div></blockquote>Welcome aboard ! You've revived an extremely old thread.  <br><br>If you take away the grammar and all those mon-khmer words, you're left with those Han-viet vocabulary then it is considered a chinese dialect.  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing"><p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=6041">xng</a> — Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:08 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[alexchau]]></name></author>
		<updated>2010-03-03T11:27:40+00:00</updated>

		<published>2010-03-03T11:27:40+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=28142#p28142</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=28142#p28142"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Vietnamese is sino-tibetan Part 2]]></title>

		
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hello guys,<br><br>I am Teochew Vietnamese or Hoa people in Vietnam.<br><br>I wonder if you guys mind my intervention<br><br>What you guys discussing is very interesting. I lived in Vietnam 5 years ago but now end up into an Australia citizen.<br><br>dunno if my info can help you guys a bit:<br><br>I dunno whether Vietnamese language is a Chinese language a not but what they call it a Vietnamese Language but also known in English as:<br><br>Sino-Vietnamese language or French invented Vietnamese language(because it's based on latin)<br><br>Han-Vietnamese or Traditional Vietnamese (200% absolutely in Traditional Chinese writing system and characters)(年 for year)<br><br>Chu Nom (another type of traditional Vietnamese stiill in Chinese characters but was modified)(南年 for year and note. those two characters just mean year in Chu Nom, not one like Han-Vietnamese)<br><br>Vietnamese pronunciation is very similar with Cantonese and Mandarin in some degrees (especially the Southern Vietnamese language because we have the north, central and south languages, each of them have accent differently and special words for each region) so in Vietnam, they usually say "If you caan speak Vietnamese well, then Cantonese is not a hard language for you to learn"<br><br>Hope my info can help you guys a bit<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=6959">alexchau</a> — Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:27 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[mean1010]]></name></author>
		<updated>2009-08-08T03:30:15+00:00</updated>

		<published>2009-08-08T03:30:15+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=24825#p24825</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=24825#p24825"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Vietnamese is sino-tibetan Part 2]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=24825#p24825"><![CDATA[
I can already smell the brushes burning when it's cranked up high.<br><br><a href="http://dossierdesurendettement.org/" class="postlink"><span style="color:#E1EBF2"><span style="text-decoration:underline">plan solution commission de surendettement</span></span></a><span style="color:#E1EBF2"> - commission de surendettement, vous pouvez demander un dossier de surendettement.</span><a href="http://dossierdesurendettement.org/" class="postlink"><span style="color:#E1EBF2"><span style="text-decoration:underline">plan solution commission de surendettement</span></span></a><p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=6034">mean1010</a> — Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:30 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-07-27T09:38:22+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-07-27T09:38:22+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=15269#p15269</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=15269#p15269"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Is that related?]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=15269#p15269"><![CDATA[
<blockquote class="uncited"><div>they became vietnamese</div></blockquote>Yeah, originally Chinese but now claim as Vietnamese. Sounds quite logical at first, but then if you see the scale of migrations of Chinese to Vietnam, which didn't seem very large, you can say that Vietnamese should be larger part of original Viet...<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:38 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-06-16T18:47:08+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-06-16T18:47:08+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=15092#p15092</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=15092#p15092"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Vietnamese is sino-tibetan Part 2]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=15092#p15092"><![CDATA[
<blockquote class="uncited"><div><strong class="text-strong">The Indonesian can also be the Yue but they were immigrated there 5000 years ago because they by 5 to 10% shared vocab with North Vietnam.</strong><br>I guess you know that Turks descended from East Asian, they mixed with the indigenous people where they migrated. In Southeast Asia, maybe there were Dravidians/Negros, so Indonesians could also be descendants of Yues (although very impure).<br><br>About the shared vocabs, even the Chinese/Tibetan has much to do with Indonesian. Bataks in Indonesia share some words from Altaic. Also, there are some 'shared' words from Chinese and English (although those may not be true cognates), Japanese with Mon-Khmer.<br>Shared without shared grammars actually means nothing.<br><br><strong class="text-strong">The linguists used only the nowadays vocab and traced the ancient Chinese vocab. They knew that Vietnam belonged to monKhmer, language only, not the genes.</strong><br>So how do you think they could share language? Languages can descend to non-related people but how?<br><br><strong class="text-strong">Most population from South China are genetically related to the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese are proud to be the same common ancestors with the South Chinese people, not the North Chinese.</strong><br>Why are they proud (or why are you proud?)? What is so special with South Chinese?</div></blockquote>there are different sharing vocabs and loan words.  The South Chinese brought the Chinese as a whole to world attention in economics, cultures, and everything.  The Northern did not have any popular culture except for the desire of political power and control over people.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:47 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-06-16T01:19:05+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-06-16T01:19:05+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=15077#p15077</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=15077#p15077"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Is that related?]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=15077#p15077"><![CDATA[
<blockquote class="uncited"><div>How was this "Chinese outflow" related to this topic?<br><br>Ethnic Chinese are called <span style="color:blue">"Hoa"</span> in Vietnam. <br>In Ming there were 500000 Chinese trevelled there. I once wondered why there are only about 1 million Hoa in Vietnam Was this due to the large outward flow?<br><br>"Africans were forced to speak English and thus lost their original language" was reasonable, but if you say "Vietnamese originally spoke Sino-Tibetan but were forced to speak Mon-Khmer" it's not very logical.<br><br><strong class="text-strong">There were no reason to do that.</strong> (Were there Khmer empire ruling over North Vietnam for quite long a time?)</div></blockquote>they became vietnamese<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:19 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-05-02T12:04:38+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-05-02T12:04:38+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14163#p14163</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14163#p14163"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Vietnamese is sino-tibetan Part 2]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14163#p14163"><![CDATA[
<strong class="text-strong">Han Chinese merely prefers to the culture, language, and nationality, not the blood. It was how the Yue surived under the Han's invasion. If they did not claim themselves to be the Hans, they would get killed by a whole family.</strong><br><br>The same thing happened in Northeast, where 'Hans' are more similar to Manchus tham NorthCentral.<br>Most Hans have the same Y gene, NorthCentral, Northeast and South. It means that they have the same grand-grand...-father. (I write 'most' since the SeMu [non-East Asians] descendants hid their identity [by changing their surnames, but it's impossible to change Y genes] and claimed that they were Chinese because they are respected in Yuan age, but hated very much in the Ming Age)<br>If their autosomal genes are not very similar to original Chinese (I guess the North-Central but not Northeast), it means that in old time Chinese did not care who the female they married (maybe: as long as they are Mongoloids hehehe...).<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Mon May 02, 2005 12:04 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-05-02T11:55:05+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-05-02T11:55:05+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14161#p14161</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14161#p14161"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Vietnamese is sino-tibetan Part 2]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14161#p14161"><![CDATA[
<strong class="text-strong">The Indonesian can also be the Yue but they were immigrated there 5000 years ago because they by 5 to 10% shared vocab with North Vietnam.</strong><br>I guess you know that Turks descended from East Asian, they mixed with the indigenous people where they migrated. In Southeast Asia, maybe there were Dravidians/Negros, so Indonesians could also be descendants of Yues (although very impure).<br><br>About the shared vocabs, even the Chinese/Tibetan has much to do with Indonesian. Bataks in Indonesia share some words from Altaic. Also, there are some 'shared' words from Chinese and English (although those may not be true cognates), Japanese with Mon-Khmer.<br>Shared without shared grammars actually means nothing.<br><br><strong class="text-strong">The linguists used only the nowadays vocab and traced the ancient Chinese vocab. They knew that Vietnam belonged to monKhmer, language only, not the genes.</strong><br>So how do you think they could share language? Languages can descend to non-related people but how?<br><br><strong class="text-strong">Most population from South China are genetically related to the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese are proud to be the same common ancestors with the South Chinese people, not the North Chinese.</strong><br>Why are they proud (or why are you proud?)? What is so special with South Chinese?<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Mon May 02, 2005 11:55 am</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-04-25T15:52:44+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-04-25T15:52:44+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14050#p14050</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14050#p14050"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Vietnamese is sino-tibetan Part 2]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14050#p14050"><![CDATA[
Vietnamese is just a branch of Bai Yue from 2000 years ago.  It is branched in mon-Khmer because recently the King Quang Trung (Light Middle) who was from Tay Son (West Mountain) around the middle area of current Vietnam.  He was pretty much with using Nom (Southern variations in both writing and speaking) which happened to be influenced from the Khmer people.  People in Vietnam at that time did not like to be confused with the Chinese identity, then they started using Nom more than usual.  I m sure around 200 years, the Vietnamese dialect was close Cantonese (I could say more than 50% mutually intelligible).  <br><br>The historical truth is this.  The indigenous Yue dwelled along the Yangtze River as well as other minority groups, which is South China today.  Zhejiang has the oldest record of the Yue, 6000 years. South Chinese are genetically different from North Chinese.  The indigenous Yue probably settled at the Red River Delta first from Fujian and Cantonese.  Close to the Red River delta, the Au Yue (from Western Au) took over Lac Yue (Cantonese and Vietnamese today) by the King Shu Pan (Thuc Phan or An Duong Vuong, Anyang Wang) and put his capital city close Red River Delta where the heavy Yue culture was practiced.  When Zhao Tuo took over Au Lac, he formed Nan Yue and moved the capital to Pan Guo (Phien Ngung.)  The Indonesian can also be the Yue but they were immigrated there 5000 years ago because they by 5 to 10% shared vocab with North Vietnam.  The linguists used only the nowadays vocab and traced the ancient Chinese vocab.  They knew that Vietnam belonged to monKhmer, language only, not the genes.  Most population from South China are genetically related to the Vietnamese.  The Vietnamese are proud to be the same common ancestors with the South Chinese people, not the North Chinese.<br><br>Han Chinese merely prefers to the culture, language, and nationality, not the blood.  It was how the Yue surived under the Han's invasion.  If they did not claim themselves to be the Hans, they would get killed by a whole family.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:52 pm</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-04-12T09:56:39+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-04-12T09:56:39+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14003#p14003</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14003#p14003"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Vietnamese is sino-tibetan Part 2]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14003#p14003"><![CDATA[
<strong class="text-strong">We are not talking about shangguyin which have cluster of consonants but Buddhism translation in china only started in han/sui period (zhonggu).</strong><br>Now you got me, I didn't know the age.<br><br><strong class="text-strong">In sanskrit we have saj,sac,sas,cat,vas,sru,sri,sr,sya,srath,jr,gr,etc which is not possible in chinese(unless with special sign) but it is possible in Tibetan,thai,etc .</strong><br>I know that Chinese never reperesented foreign names correctly.<br>The main problem is that Chinese are not alphabetic, since Chinese is Ideographic, the Characters were only possible to present what was avalaible in the morphology.<br>They can be written in Tibetan, Thai etc. so what?<br>Indonesian can write -c and -z and pronounce them while in the actual language they're not found.<br>In Indonesia we have Jawa script derived from India, so I know that they can be written in Indian.<br><br><strong class="text-strong">Please don't pretend to be an expect when you still have too much to learn. <br>Example,you didn't even study yunshu in chinese to get the words like crazy in minnan -siau which is apprear in Kangxizidian.This is a very basic book to study if you want to becaome expert.</strong><br>I really don't understand what you wrote about.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:56 am</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-04-08T13:07:13+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-04-08T13:07:13+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13997#p13997</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13997#p13997"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[another foru]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13997#p13997"><![CDATA[
A few of us have migrated to<br><br><a href="http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showforum=23" class="postlink">http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showforum=23</a><br><br>It has a more pleasant user interface and is for more serious linguistic discussions. Please go there if you want to discuss.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:07 pm</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-04-08T13:05:15+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-04-08T13:05:15+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13996#p13996</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13996#p13996"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Vietnamese is sino-tibetan Part 2]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13996#p13996"><![CDATA[
We are not talking about shangguyin which have cluster of consonants but Buddhism translation in china only started in han/sui period (zhonggu).<br>In sanskrit we have saj,sac,sas,cat,vas,sru,sri,sr,sya,srath,jr,gr,etc which is not possible in chinese(unless with special sign) but it is possible in Tibetan,thai,etc .<br>Please don't pretend to be an expect when you still have too much to learn.<br>Example,you didn't even study yunshu in chinese to get the words like crazy in minnan -siau which is apprear in Kangxizidian.This is a very basic book to study if you want to becaome expert.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:05 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-04-08T11:55:12+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-04-08T11:55:12+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13993#p13993</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13993#p13993"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Vietnamese is sino-tibetan Part 2]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13993#p13993"><![CDATA[
How do you know that I don't know?<br>Those Double/Triple/quartruple consonant group is called 'clusters'.<br>In fact, the old Chinese (should) have a few clusters, but is far in number from other languages.<br><br>Clusters and polysyllables do not mean non-tonal. If you see Ruc and Muong you will know.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:55 am</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-04-08T04:35:32+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-04-08T04:35:32+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13992#p13992</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13992#p13992"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Vietnamese is sino-tibetan Part 2]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13992#p13992"><![CDATA[
You don't know that some sanskrit words cannot be formed  like sva,tva,etc.They put it on top of each other but still a lot of confusinf things happen.There cannot be a perfectly wrtitten sanskrit/pali/prakrit text in chinese words in ancient or modern time.<br>However,Buddho can be sounded exatly in modern minnan baidu<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:35 am</p><hr />
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