<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xml:lang="en-gb"> <link rel="self" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/app.php/feed/topic/58149" /> <title>Chinese languages</title> <subtitle>Chinese languages</subtitle> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/index.php" /> <updated>2012-11-27T00:13:56+00:00</updated> <author><name><![CDATA[Chinese languages]]></name></author> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/app.php/feed/topic/58149</id> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[Mark Yong]]></name></author> <updated>2012-11-27T00:13:56+00:00</updated> <published>2012-11-27T00:13:56+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85404#p85404</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85404#p85404"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: An Interesting interview in Hokkien]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85404#p85404"><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div><strong class="text-strong">ransek wrote:</strong><br>May I know where did you download the book? I went through the book briefly a few years ago when I was in Hong Kong. It would be great if I can have a more detailed look.</div></blockquote>Hi, <strong class="text-strong">ransek</strong>,<br><br><span style="color:#0000FF"><a href="http://ishare.iask.sina.com.cn/" class="postlink">http://ishare.iask.sina.com.cn/</a></span><br>I don't think you will be requiring instructions from me on how to use it. <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":)" title="Smile"> But be fore-warned: Download speed can be <em class="text-italics">painfully slow</em> if you are doing it from outside of China.<br><br>The <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">吳</span> <em class="text-italics">Wu</em>-related books that I downloaded are:<br><span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">1. 上海話大詞典<br>2. 上海話 900 句<br>3. 吳語本字舉例<br>4. 蘇州方言誌<br>5. 蘇州方言詞典</span><br><br>Do share your findings and insights, once you have had a chance to go through it in greater detail. <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":)" title="Smile"> <br><br>There may be more in there, but my eyes were already glazed just working through those few! <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":P" title="Razz"><p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=418">Mark Yong</a> — Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:13 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[ransek]]></name></author> <updated>2012-11-26T18:09:22+00:00</updated> <published>2012-11-26T18:09:22+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85403#p85403</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85403#p85403"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: An Interesting interview in Hokkien]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85403#p85403"><![CDATA[ Hi everyone! I just got back from my Thanksgiving vacation. Seems like everybody has been busy. <br><br>SimL: Thanks for your nice words. I agree that it's common for people to think their own lives as normal and boring. It's just that I always consider lives of oversea Chinese (esp Malaysian Chinese) to be a lot more interesting than my own^^<br><br>Mark: So glad that you are so into the Wu language. May I know where did you download the book? I went through the book briefly a few years ago when I was in Hong Kong. It would be great if I can have a more detailed look. My Wu is getting worse since I left Suzhou more than 8 years ago so I may need to learn it again...<br><br>I have so much to talk about the points you mentioned about Wu. But I guess a separate thread in the Wu forum would be more appropriate. I hope I will have time to start one soon. Here I just gave some brief pointers<br><br>- Personal pronouns vary greatly in different Wu dialects. 伊 in Shanghai Wu might have come from different origins as 伊 in Hokkien<br>- The dual readings you mentioned are indeed 文白異讀. <br>- Suzhou Wu is more "orthodox" than Shanghai Wu, but is actually very "advanced" (heavily influenced by Northern Chinese since Qing dynasty) compared to some other Wu dialects. My grandfather's native tongue, Changshu Wu, has 8 tones, more vowels and consonants and a lot more traditional Wu vocabulary than Suzhou Wu, is probably the most orthodox Wu dialect in the Taihu region. The sound of Suzhou Wu is a lot more "pleasing", though. <br><br>I will talk more on the similarities between Hokkien&Wu and Wu itself in separate posts.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3606">ransek</a> — Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:09 pm</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[Mark Yong]]></name></author> <updated>2012-11-21T01:18:11+00:00</updated> <published>2012-11-21T01:18:11+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85389#p85389</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85389#p85389"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: An Interesting interview in Hokkien]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85389#p85389"><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div><strong class="text-strong">ransek wrote:</strong><br>It was amazing that you could pick up Hokkien in six months. I guess you might have some exposure to Hokkien even before you went to Penang. </div></blockquote>Okay, admittedly I did have some exposure to Hokkien before I went up to Penang. <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif" width="15" height="15" alt="8)" title="Cool"> But it was limited to a smattering of basic words - <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">大</span> <em class="text-italics">toa</em> , <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">細</span> <em class="text-italics">se</em>, <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">淡薄</span> <em class="text-italics">tam-poh</em>, <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">熱</span> <em class="text-italics">joah</em>, <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">冷</span> <em class="text-italics">leng</em>, <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">會使</span> <em class="text-italics">e-sai</em>. Hardly enough to string a sentence more than five words long, and absolutely no way that I could have carried out a conversation. And at that time, partly due to limited exposure, I looked upon Hokkien with disdain, seeing it as crude, lexically-limited, and unconnected with the Chinese language as a whole. That all changed when I went up to Penang (partly because it also coincided with a period of renewed interest in the Chinese language for me). As to how I picked up the dialect quickly, there really are no two ways about it. Listen hard and absorb words like a sponge. And here’s the next crucial step: You must <em class="text-italics">constantly use</em> what you have learnt, at every possible opportunity. This takes a bit of thick skin (and unfortunately, some people are just too darn proud to risk making mistakes), but it has to be done. Then you get to experience the language ‘at work’.<br><br>That said, it is not impossible to learn the language outside of its native environment. We have <strong class="text-strong">Ah-bin</strong> on this Forum who is a prime example of one who has pretty much mastered the intricacies of <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">閩南</span> <em class="text-italics">Minnan</em> without having had the advantage of spending an extended period of time immersed in a <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">閩南</span> <em class="text-italics">Minnan</em>-speaking environment.<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div><strong class="text-strong">ransek wrote:</strong><br>Finding 本字 is a tough task. I've been frequenting linguistic forums for some years but there are still so many Wu words that I had no clue what their 本字 are.</div></blockquote>It’s a similar challenge for <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">閩南</span> <em class="text-italics">Minnan</em>, too. The more difficult ones come in the form of:<br>1. Grammatical particles and functional words (<span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">虛詞</span>). E.g. where <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">閩南</span> <em class="text-italics">Minnan</em> has <em class="text-italics">tsit</em>7-<em class="text-italics">e</em>5 ‘this’, <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">吳</span> <em class="text-italics">Wu</em> has <em class="text-italics">ɡə.tɐ</em>.<br>2. Words of non-Sinitic origin (probably less of a challenge with 吳 Wu). These I do not even try to artifically-impose <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">本字</span> on them, as I feel there is no point in denying their non-Sinitic roots.<br>That is the reason why my primary focus are on content words (<span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">實詞</span>) - nouns, verbs, adjectives - as those are the ones more likely to have <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">本字</span>. That way, I amass more characters right off the bat (sort of like quickly completing all the easy questions on an examination paper first, before flogging yourself to death with the more difficult ones!), thus making the exercise a lot less discouraging.<br><br>To ease the exercise somewhat, I normally approach it from two directions, and in the process, see if I can meet halfway:<br>1. Identify the word(s), and then search for the <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">本字</span>.<br>2. Identify the Chinese character, and then find out how it is pronounced (both in <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">文讀</span> and <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">白讀</span>).<br>By this method, every now and again I find that (2) leads me to identify a <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">本字</span> in (1), via word combinations or cross-references to related words.<br><br>This is part of the reason why I generally commence <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">本字</span> analysis via <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">文言文</span> Literary Chinese texts. In the past, they must have been recited using the standard <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">文讀</span> readings of the region, with each character mapped to a known regional standard pronunciation. And <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">吳</span> <em class="text-italics">Wu</em> should be no exception. I realise it imposes a somewhat artificial structure, as the spoken vernacular would correspond to <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">白讀</span>, but if the <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">文白</span> patterns can somehow be established, it forms a pretty good guide (imperfect though it may be).<br><br>Regarding the similarities between <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">閩南</span> <em class="text-italics">Minnan</em> and <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">吳</span> <em class="text-italics">Wu</em>, one aspect that comes to mind is the consistent pattern in the dropping of the consonant -n endings and replacing them with nasalised endings in the <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">白讀</span> colloquial readings. E.g. <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">看</span> is <em class="text-italics">khoaⁿ</em>3 in <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">閩南</span> <em class="text-italics">Minnan</em> and <em class="text-italics">khuə</em> in <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">吳</span> <em class="text-italics">Wu</em>; <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">安</span> is <em class="text-italics">uaⁿ</em>3 in <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">閩南</span> <em class="text-italics">Minnan</em> and <em class="text-italics">uə</em> in <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">吳</span> <em class="text-italics">Wu</em>. Vocabulary-wise, the most obvious example that comes to mind is <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">伊</span> as the 3rd person pronoun.<br><br>One aspect that intrigues me about <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">上海話</span> are the dual readings - as in, I am not sure if they are simply <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">文白</span> pairs, or different readings depending on context. E.g. <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">人</span> is <em class="text-italics">zeng</em> in <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">人民</span> <em class="text-italics">zeng-ming</em>, but is <em class="text-italics">ning</em> in <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">人家</span> <em class="text-italics">ning-ka</em>. And there again, <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">家</span> can be either <em class="text-italics">ka</em> or <em class="text-italics">jia</em>. Somehow, I get the feeling that the <em class="text-italics">zeng</em> reading for <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">人</span> and <em class="text-italics">jia</em> reading for <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">家</span> is a stratum from Northern influence.<br><br>Since you have now renewed my interest in <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">吳</span> <em class="text-italics">Wu</em>, I just downloaded an old book <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">『蘇州方言誌』</span>(plus a couple of others). Chapter 8 <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">『蘇州話標音舉例』</span> has example texts with each character marked with its pronunciation and tone mark, totalling close to 100 pages. As to why I am focussing on <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">蘇州話</span> rather than <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">上海話</span>, what little I have read seems to point towards <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">蘇州話</span> as the “orthodox” <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">吳</span> <em class="text-italics">Wu</em>, rather than <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">上海話</span> which is more of a “<em class="text-italics">Wu</em>-eclectic” dialect that has - as <strong class="text-strong">amhoanna</strong> pointed out - suffered the onslaught of <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">北方語</span> influences. I realise that I am swimming upstream, as <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">上海話</span> is the <em class="text-italics">de facto</em> standard for <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">吳</span> <em class="text-italics">Wu</em> today - but then again, isn’t all dialect study and preservation? <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":P" title="Razz"> <br><br>By the way, thanks for the YouTube link - most interesting. I had to rely on the subtitles to get through the dialogue, and even that took three viewings!<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div><strong class="text-strong">ransek wrote:</strong><br>...he went to 尊孔獨中 and said they needed to pay fines if caught speaking Cantonese...</div></blockquote>Yes, <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">尊孔獨中</span> <em class="text-italics">Confucian Private High School</em> and <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">中華獨中</span> <em class="text-italics">Chung Hwa Independent High School</em> are two of the more well-known Chinese Independent High Schools in Kuala Lumpur (there are currently a total 60 <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">獨立中學</span> across the whole of Malaysia; it is the only country outside of mainland China and Taiwan where a fully Chinese language-based education system all the way to the end of upper secondary still exists. As I did not attend Chinese school (yes, I am part of the estimated 30% minority in my generation of Chinese Malaysians who are bananas - yellow outside, white inside!), I am not entirely familiar with the strict rules in regards to the use of dialect within the school compound, though I recall hearing of such a rule being imposed at the <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">檳城鍾靈國民型中學</span> Chung Ling High School (Penang).<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=418">Mark Yong</a> — Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:18 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[SimL]]></name></author> <updated>2012-11-20T11:07:25+00:00</updated> <published>2012-11-20T11:07:25+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85388#p85388</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85388#p85388"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: An Interesting interview in Hokkien]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85388#p85388"><![CDATA[ Gosh, such stimulating discussions at a moment when I can't respond much!<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div><blockquote class="uncited"><div>"wa e tsO-kong (kui-na e, m-si ka-liau) si u-iaN ti tsheng-tiau e si lai kau ma-lai-a e."</div></blockquote>Goá hit kù oē kóng soah ciah siūⁿ ·tio̍h, "Chám ·a, goá boēkìtit aSim kah só·'ū ê Bābā-té Pineng lâng ·khì ·a."</div></blockquote>miEn phaiN-se là! lu an-nE khuan kong, wa soah u tsán [that's "chance" in Penang Hokkien <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green">] thang hE-loh wa-e a-ma e a-ma e bong e foto ti cit-peng. <br><br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Hi Mark,<br><br>Great to know your interesting background!</div></blockquote>Ransek: it's lovely that you're so positive in expressing that you find our backgrounds interesting. I remember you said something very positive about the other Forum members, including about me, in earlier replies. <br><br>You were also slightly self-deprecatory about your own background:<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>My background isn't that interesting. I was born in Northern China and raised in Suzhou, China. My family is 3/4 Wu and 1/4 Northern. Mandarin is my mother tongue, but I speak Suzhou Wu fluently (and a little bit of Changshu and Shanghai Wu). I went to college in Hong Kong so I have no problem conversing in Cantonese (Cantonese is fairly easy to pick up for Wu people). Then I moved to the states for more school and work.</div></blockquote>I just wanted to say that there is absolutely no need to be modest or self-deprecatory! I think it's often the case that people think of their own lives as "normal", "boring", whatever. Like (and this is not false modestry) I really don't think of my own life as being that remarkable or interesting. For me, it's quite "exotic" and "remarkable" and "worthy of admiration" that someone can be a native Mandarin speaker, speaker various forms of Wu - some very fluently, some less so - AND can converse in Cantonese, AND have a very high level of mastery of English. From my point of view, your background, skills, and course in life are far more interesting than my own <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":P" title="Razz">.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=977">SimL</a> — Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:07 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[ransek]]></name></author> <updated>2012-11-20T01:33:06+00:00</updated> <published>2012-11-20T01:33:06+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85387#p85387</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85387#p85387"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: An Interesting interview in Hokkien]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85387#p85387"><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Maybe an "Arabic"-type solution would've been best: a "reconstructed" "Classic Chinese" language could've been fabricated and installed as a pan-Sinitic lingua franca. In practice, people would've tended to use it as little as possible, and local languages would've been safe for another few centuries.</div></blockquote>I agree with you. And the reconstruction isn't that hard at all. The pronunciations of 漢字 in Cantonese, Hakka and literary reading 文讀音 of Hokkien have very good similarities. The latter two are in particular very very close. I think these represent 中原雅音 in the Sui-Tang-Song era. There were actually people proposing similar solutions in pku forum. <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Esp. in the "northeasternmost" Mandarin that became national. AFAIK, many other Mandarin dialects have kept clear correspondences to traditional tones, at least.</div></blockquote>Yea this seems to be true. There was a theory that even the Beijing dialect outside the inner city was better. There seemed to be two different dialects in and outside the core of the imperial capital. Inside the dialect is closer to Northeastern Mandarin while outside it is closer to the general Hebei Mandarin. I guess the development of Mandarin had two major steps. The first was due to the Khitan and Mongolian influence, the second attributed to Manchu. The first one seemed to be more decisive, though. The population displacement and large-scale genocide during the Mongo-Jurchen war made Northern China very scarcely populated. A more striking evidence is that the only region in North China that did not suffer from such tragedy is Shanxi and guess what---Shanxi dialect seems to be the only Northern dialect that has kept 入聲!<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>On the other hand, we need to keep in mind that Canton Cantonese is probably heavier on Northern influences as well, compared to Hoisan and other "country" or Tanka dialects.</div></blockquote>That's true and standard Cantonese even has quite some borrowings directly from Modern Mandarin (like 玩waan2 and 呆daai1). But IMHO the main factor that made standard Cantonese closer to Mandarin is that the main "layer" of it was developed quite recently from Northern Chinese in that time (so-called Middle Chinese). In contrast, Wu (and Min) has become a separate branch for a much longer time and has received later influences in subsequent periods. That is why there is so little 文白異讀 in Cantonese. <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Hokkien is pretty unique in that the "representative", metropolitan dialects (Coanciu City + Amoy) are poss. even less Northernized than the others. </div></blockquote>That is brand new information to me! Can you elaborate a bit? And what exactly do you mean by "Northernized" here? By Middle Chinese or Modern Mandarin?<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Here the influence seems to hv been two-way for a long time, both in the 20th cen. when many leading 白話文 writers came from Wo-phone backgrounds, or in the days of the Nanjing koine. And two-way influence is the essence of globalization, i.e. nothing to be ashamed of!</div></blockquote>True. I also mentioned this two-way influences earlier. <br><br>By the way, why did you use "Wo" instead of "Wu"? The pronunciation of 吳 varies in different Wu dialects so I don't really know what might be a better name than Wu. Personally I would prefer "Ng" which is the traditional pronunciation in Taihu-region.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3606">ransek</a> — Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:33 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[ransek]]></name></author> <updated>2012-11-20T01:34:02+00:00</updated> <published>2012-11-20T00:46:09+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85386#p85386</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85386#p85386"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: An Interesting interview in Hokkien]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85386#p85386"><![CDATA[ Hi Mark,<br><br>Great to know your interesting background! <br><br>One of my good friends from college was from KL. He speaks Cantonese natively but always claimed Mandarin was his mother tongue, and he just "picked up" Cantonese from his family. I think it has to do with the Chinese education in MSia (he went to 尊孔獨中 and said they needed to pay fines if caught speaking Cantonese). I'll go visit him this winter and hopefully I will have chance to observe the linguistic environment there. <br><br>It was amazing that you could pick up Hokkien in six months. I guess you might have some exposure to Hokkien even before you went to Penang. The friend I mentioned didn't speak Hokkien but knew quite some words and expressions. <br><br>And it is great to know the contributors of this forum came from such diverse background. But it seems to be a pity that there is no one from the Hokkien province. I came across many online Hokkien "activists" in Chinese forums. It might be a good idea to invite them to here.<br><br>Finding 本字 is a tough task. I've been frequenting linguistic forums for some years but there are still so many Wu words that I had no clue what their 本字 are. And I guess in many cases there are no conclusive results---sometimes even when some scholars came up with some theories, I find the evidence flimsy and could not buy it. That said, i also think it is a very interesting and rewarding task.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3606">ransek</a> — Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:46 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[amhoanna]]></name></author> <updated>2012-11-19T23:39:06+00:00</updated> <published>2012-11-19T23:39:06+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85385#p85385</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85385#p85385"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: An Interesting interview in Hokkien]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85385#p85385"><![CDATA[ Mark:<br><br>Hit pún cheh chehmiâ goá boēkì ·a, ah iā bô cah tī sinkhu piⁿ. Lí ēsái khíkhì Hiongkáng ê bāngcām chē khoàⁿ o̍h Siōnghái oē ê cheh.<br><br>Hit kaiⁿ chehtiàm tiàm tólo̍h, ci̍t sî goá siūⁿ boē khí ·lâi. Goá khoàⁿ tētô͘ kámkah sī MEDAN TOANKU cām piⁿ ·á.<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>"wa e tsO-kong (kui-na e, m-si ka-liau) si u-iaN ti tsheng-tiau e si lai kau ma-lai-a e."</div></blockquote>Goá hit kù oē kóng soah ciah siūⁿ ·tio̍h, "Chám ·a, goá boēkìtit aSim kah só·'ū ê Bābā-té Pineng lâng ·khì ·a."<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>I think 章太炎's argument was not based on the "superiority of Sino languages". It would be clear if you have the context.</div></blockquote>My apologies to the man. <br><br>Maybe an "Arabic"-type solution would've been best: a "reconstructed" "Classic Chinese" language could've been fabricated and installed as a pan-Sinitic lingua franca. In practice, people would've tended to use it as little as possible, and local languages would've been safe for another few centuries.<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>But in Mandarin the traditional tones and rhymes are mixed with one another, often without any clear rule.</div></blockquote>Esp. in the "northeasternmost" Mandarin that became national. AFAIK, many other Mandarin dialects have kept clear correspondences to traditional tones, at least.<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>However, I don't think Northern Wu in general is closer to Mandarin than Cantonese. I've been trying to teach my Mandophone girlfriend both Suzhou Wu and Cantonese, and she clearly pick up Cantonese much more quickly. To her, Suzhou Wu sounded much more bizarre and she couldn't even make out the word boundaries. Northern Wu tends to treat a whole sentence as a unit---the pace is a lot higher (because of simplified rhymes) and Wu has a complex tone sandhi system which is sentence-based. From a phonetic point of view, I think Wu is more distant from Mandarin than Cantonese.</div></blockquote>U may be right! I've suspected the same for some time. <br><br>On the other hand, we need to keep in mind that Canton Cantonese is probably heavier on Northern influences as well, compared to Hoisan and other "country" or Tanka dialects. <br><br>Hokkien is pretty unique in that the "representative", metropolitan dialects (Coanciu City + Amoy) are poss. even less Northernized than the others. <br><br>Another factor I forgot to mention is that one reason for the lexical proximity btw Mandarin and Northern Wo is actually Northern Wo influence on Mandarin. Here the influence seems to hv been two-way for a long time, both in the 20th cen. when many leading 白話文 writers came from Wo-phone backgrounds, or in the days of the Nanjing koine. And two-way influence is the essence of globalization, i.e. nothing to be ashamed of!<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7909">amhoanna</a> — Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:39 pm</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[SimL]]></name></author> <updated>2012-11-19T14:09:48+00:00</updated> <published>2012-11-19T14:09:48+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85384#p85384</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85384#p85384"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: An Interesting interview in Hokkien]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85384#p85384"><![CDATA[ Sorry, I'm incredibly busy at the moment, so can't post much more. There are so many interesting issues raised by everyone. I hope to have more time next week. I'll just squeeze this in now.<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>We hear a lot about 閩粵人 emigrating south during the Ming and the Ching, but I've been to many parts and many ports of SEA... Pretty much every single person I've ever spoken to here in a Sino language was the child or grandchild of people who emigrated in ROC times. I've never had the satisfaction of someone telling me in Hokkien or Cantonese that their people arrived in Ching times.</div></blockquote>Right, here goes: "wa e tsO-kong (kui-na e, m-si ka-liau) si u-iaN ti tsheng-tiau e si lai kau ma-lai-a e." (That was my attempt at telling you in Hokkien that some of my ancestors really did arrive in Malaya in Ching times <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green">).<br><br>The following link is a photograph of the grave inscription of one of my great-great-grandmothers. The far right column reads "<span style="font-size:150%;line-height:116%">光緒戊寅年孟冬</span>", which I've translated as "[Died] 1878, first month of Winter (10th lunar month)". <br><br>This photo might already have been posted on this Forum earlier, when I was getting help from Forum members for doing the translation of the whole thing. The grave itself is in the Mount Erskine Cemetry in Penang.<br><br><img src="http://detlev.home.xs4all.nl/sim/graves/B2_yew_geok_say_central_slab.jpg" class="postimage" alt="Image"><br><br>I'm not totally sure that she was born in Malaya - I can ask an uncle who has done a lot of research into that aspect of the family - but even if she wasn't, this would appear to prove that she had migrated to Malaya in Qing times. But in all probability, I think she was born in Malaya. IIRC, even her parents were born in Malaya.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=977">SimL</a> — Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:09 pm</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[Mark Yong]]></name></author> <updated>2012-11-19T07:28:29+00:00</updated> <published>2012-11-19T07:28:29+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85383#p85383</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85383#p85383"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: An Interesting interview in Hokkien]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85383#p85383"><![CDATA[ Hi, <strong class="text-strong">ransek</strong>,<br><br>Quite an interesting series of posts. I really do not know where or how to slot in, so I thought I’d just give a brief overview of my background in relation to my interest in <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">閩南語</span>.<br><br>I am a 4th generation Chinese Malaysian, born and raised in Kuala Lumpur. My ancestral dialect is <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">惠州話</span>, but I cannot speak much of it (though, through exposure to the older generation during my formative years, I can understand it well when heard). Cantonese is my strongest Chinese dialect, given my KL upbringing.<br><br>As to how I encountered Hokkien, it was when I moved up north to Penang to work in the electronics industry for six years. I picked up the dialect partly out of necessity and convenience (everyone speaks it, from company suppliers to street vendors), but it was mainly because I was just fascinated by the dialect, and wanted to learn it. I picked up enough to function on the streets within six months, and was fairly conversant at it within three years. It also helped that I spent my weekends hanging around in places where ‘purer’ varieties of the dialect was spoken (e.g. martial arts academies, coffee shops, car workshops). And because of my passion (obsession?) towards the study of <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">本字</span>, this further supplemented my learning.<br><br><strong class="text-strong">amhoanna</strong> raised an interesting point about the Shanghai dialect being somewhat geographically-limited to the <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">吳</span> region (which is not to say that it makes me less interested to learn it!). What I mean is that, in contrast, what I find fascinating about the Hokkien dialect is that it is truly a <em class="text-italics">diaspora</em> dialect (although Cantonese can also claim to have a diaspora status, it has the advantage of Hong Kong both as a geographical anchor and having an environment that has always supported the dialect). Speakers of the various varieties of <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">閩南語</span>, descendents of the migrants across the last two centuries or so, can be found across the Taiwanese Straits and South-East Asia. Within this Minnan Forum, we have representation hailing from Taiwan, Penang, Singapore, Indonesia and the Philippines (though, not all are active at any given time).<br><br>After reading through the old Forum threads, you will probably start to identify some of the more regular members, each bringing different perspectives and areas of emphasis (as illustrated by the recurring themes in their posts). I shall let the other Forumers introduce themselves and their respective interests, but as for me (and the older Forumers will probably attest to this), my primary interest in <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">閩南語</span> is in its Sinitic roots, and seeking out the <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">本字</span> for many of the unique words in its vocabulary that originate from Old Chinese and have fallen out of general use in the younger dialects such as Mandarin.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=418">Mark Yong</a> — Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:28 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[ransek]]></name></author> <updated>2012-11-19T02:21:10+00:00</updated> <published>2012-11-19T02:21:10+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85382#p85382</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85382#p85382"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: An Interesting interview in Hokkien]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85382#p85382"><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>This implies that Sino languages are somehow inherently superior to Tungusic languages. I'd also support any "retroactive prevention" <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing"> of Mandarin becoming THE national language of China, but not b/c it somehow went to seed after being Tungusicized. That kind of reasoning is "mentally challenged". </div></blockquote>I think 章太炎's argument was not based on the "superiority of Sino languages". It would be clear if you have the context. Anyway what he meant was that the phonology of Beijing dialect was too different from traditional Chinese phonology and therefore it was not "qualified" to become the national language. <br><br>Chinese intellectuals in the old times valued phonology (esp. tones and rhymes) a lot, mainly for literary purpose (e.g. 平仄,押韻). As many of you must be aware of, although Southern Chinese languages are very different with one another, they generally have good correspondence with traditional phonology. But in Mandarin the traditional tones and rhymes are mixed with one another, often without any clear rule.<br><br>My grandma started to write poems in the 1980s. Although all the poems she wrote was to be read in Mandarin only, she still followed traditional phonology books. And often times she needed to read the characters in Wu to check if the poems agree with the phonological rules. <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div> I find it easy to understand a lot of Shanghaian. I assumed it was b/c it was close to Mandarin, but friends w/o the heritage have told me they find it no easier than understanding Cantonese..... Second, they seem too similar to Mandarin to be worth the effort -- even 浦江.</div></blockquote>This can be a controversial topic. I agree that Shanghai Wu is in some way closer to Mandarin due to its simplified nature and the fact that it was in fact developed during a time when Mandarin already gained prestige and even much popularity. However, I don't think Northern Wu in general is closer to Mandarin than Cantonese. I've been trying to teach my Mandophone girlfriend both Suzhou Wu and Cantonese, and she clearly pick up Cantonese much more quickly. To her, Suzhou Wu sounded much more bizarre and she couldn't even make out the word boundaries. Northern Wu tends to treat a whole sentence as a unit---the pace is a lot higher (because of simplified rhymes) and Wu has a complex tone sandhi system which is sentence-based. From a phonetic point of view, I think Wu is more distant from Mandarin than Cantonese. The "similar" parts might come from modern vocabularies and literary reading. <br>However, I agree that Hokkien (and in general the Min languages) is much more distance from Mandarin than Wu. <br><br>Here is a video in modern Suzhou Wu with subtitles (and you can see the way junior high students speak it)<br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ773bA2WFg" class="postlink">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ773bA2WFg</a><br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>That's an iceberg U've got there. The Sinitic underpinnings of Hoklo, Hokciu, etc. are derived from an old "江東" Sino language or complex of languages. Poss. even some of the non-Sino underpinnings of Hoklo came down the coast the same way. The deep similarities are certainly there, it's just that very few of us are equipped to go find them. </div></blockquote>I'm aware of the deep similarities, which is why I'm so fascinated by Hokkien. I will try to discuss more when I have time.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3606">ransek</a> — Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:21 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[Mark Yong]]></name></author> <updated>2012-11-17T08:58:16+00:00</updated> <published>2012-11-17T08:58:16+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85374#p85374</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85374#p85374"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: An Interesting interview in Hokkien]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85374#p85374"><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div><strong class="text-strong">amhoanna wrote:</strong><br>Mark, I've got to recommend as well a book published in HK that teaches Shanghaian from Cantonese. I found it in KL at a major non-chain Chinese-language bookstore on a major street right next to one of the stops on the KL "skytrain". I can't remember the names of any of this stuff, but U prob. know which store I mean!</div></blockquote>If it is a ‘major non-chain Chinese-language shop’ (which immediately excludes Popular Bookstore <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">大衆書局</span> and Mentor Bookstore <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">大將書局</span>) and just off the train line, then I am guessing that you are referring to <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">學林書局</span> (is there a McDonald’s a couple of doors to the left, and did you have to go up a dodgy flight of stairs to get to it?). It’s quite popular with the students from the nearby <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">尊孔獨立中學</span>. I picked up my copies of the <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">「 閩南話漳腔辭典」</span>, <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">「閩南方言大辭典」</span> and the blue paper-back <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">「廈門方言誌」</span> from there.<br><br>Anyway, if you can flick the book title and/or author’s name across to me, finding it should be a piece of cake! Ironically, the majority of my Chinese-language book purchases in the last 12 months have been by mail-order from Taiwan’s <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">三民書局</span> (given my penchant for <span style="font-size:110%;line-height:116%">繁體字</span>-only books) <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing"><p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=418">Mark Yong</a> — Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:58 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[amhoanna]]></name></author> <updated>2012-11-17T06:17:42+00:00</updated> <published>2012-11-17T06:17:42+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85373#p85373</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85373#p85373"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: An Interesting interview in Hokkien]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85373#p85373"><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>In my previous work-life, I spent a bit of time in-and-out of Shanghai, and have always been very fascinated with the 吳 Wu dialect - to the extent that I even purchased 湯志祥’s books/CD's on 上海閒話 Zanhe Eiwo.</div></blockquote>Mark, I've got to recommend as well a book published in HK that teaches Shanghaian from Cantonese. I found it in KL at a major non-chain Chinese-language bookstore on a major street right next to one of the stops on the KL "skytrain". I can't remember the names of any of this stuff, but U prob. know which store I mean!<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>What I want to say is that the Mandarinization of China is quite different from that of Taiwan and Singapore.</div></blockquote>Absolutely. They're converging now, though. The most striking difference is that in China, "local power" generally speaks a local language while in TW even "local power" speaks Mandarin. In S'pore, power speaks English.<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Very typical example is how the government of France, a country labels herself as the role model of human liberty and equality, has continued to brutally oppress non-French languages within its border for the past few centuries, even to this day. </div></blockquote>Nice and ironic.<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>A very renowned Chinese scholar 章太炎 coined the term 金元虜語 in early 1900s in order to prevent Mandarin from becoming the national language.</div></blockquote>This implies that Sino languages are somehow inherently superior to Tungusic languages. I'd also support any "retroactive prevention" <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing"> of Mandarin becoming THE national language of China, but not b/c it somehow went to seed after being Tungusicized. That kind of reasoning is "mentally challenged". <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>It is sad to see that so many Wu people have given up our mother tongue, both in and out of the Wu region. May I ask which part of Wu you family are from? </div></blockquote>浦江, 餘姚, 無錫. The latter two "elements" (my maternals) converged in Shanghai very early, c. late 19th cen. My parents were born on "the islands". My father never spoke 浦江 at any level, but my mother can speak Shanghaian at a higher level than she realizes. I find it easy to understand a lot of Shanghaian. I assumed it was b/c it was close to Mandarin, but friends w/o the heritage have told me they find it no easier than understanding Cantonese. This really surprised me. Early exposure does work wonders. I can't understand 浦江 at all. It's like a twilight zone when I go there. <br><br>I've toyed with learning Shanghaian and 浦江 on many occasions, but the pull hasn't been strong enough. The first factor against is that the languages have no currency outside lower 江南道, as I like to call it -- the diaspora is thin, and the young folks speak Mandarin (or Canto.) by default. Second, they seem too similar to Mandarin to be worth the effort -- even 浦江. If I had the time, though, I'd still like to learn Northern Wo, pref. Ningbo as it seems rough, ready and manly. <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green"> <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>And did you grow up speaking Mandarin at home? If so, how did you pick up Taiwanese and become so good at it?</div></blockquote>Yes. I must say that I speak Hoklo quite badly, but since so many Hoklo people my age speak it even worse than me, people are willing to overlook this. <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing"> I started before I knew much about the linguistics of it. Orig. I assumed it would be a snap. It was a surprise to find how different the two languages were, and how much of a non-Sino element lurked in Hoklo. This last part fascinated me and really drew me in, since it resonated with my forming identity. As a young person coming of age, seduced by the peaks and deep seas of Mother Taiwan, conscious of my lost "Wo" identity, I more or less adopted Hoklo has my "new" tribal tongue. The goal I had in mind was to improve my Hoklo to the then-level of my Mandarin. I didn't think it was really possible, but I think I may be close to that goal, although my Mandarin has improved too and remains two steps ahead. <br><br>I went about learning Hoklo in the dumbest ways at first, but I got here anyway b/c I never quit. Usually in language learning, U hit stretches where U lose interest. This never happened for me with Hoklo. I'd say I've put in the 10,000 hrs required to become a fully fluent spkr. Meanwhile, for learning other languages, I seek and exploit shortcuts to the fullest. May U learn Hoklo more efficiently than I did.<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>In fact, the similarities between Wu and Hokkien are more noticeable from a very "shallow" perspective. one example is that both have voiced plosives and nasalization. Of course these might be merely coincidence.</div></blockquote>That's an iceberg U've got there. The Sinitic underpinnings of Hoklo, Hokciu, etc. are derived from an old "江東" Sino language or complex of languages. Poss. even some of the non-Sino underpinnings of Hoklo came down the coast the same way. The deep similarities are certainly there, it's just that very few of us are equipped to go find them. <br><br>Recently the issue of how to say 大閘蟹 in Hoklo came up on a forum on Facebook. A gentleman on the China side found out that the "閘" is actually a 假借 usage that came into Written Chinese via a Wo language where it represented an etymon meaning TO BOIL, most likely cognate to Hoklo "sah8", TO BOIL. Notice that these cognates are quite poss. non-Sino. <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>As for "reading Chinese texts in Wu", I have to confess that I am not able to do that. Before 1980s, education is largely done in Wu; So people who went to school then would have no problem speaking Wu in any scenario. The Mandarin-educated generations, however, have lost such ability. </div></blockquote>My mother was born in TW and "Manducated" throughout. She learned Mandarin and Shanghaian side by side and most likely spoke Mandarin much better by the time she was 7. One time I called her to ask her how to pronounce 越 in Shanghaian. As expected, she said she didn't know. Then, five seconds later, she remembered and told me. <br><br>Five minutes later, she called back to tell me the other pronunciation of 越 in Shanghaian that she'd also just remembered. I was amazed at how deep her Shanghaian was despite non-use. She hasn't spoken it since HER grandmother passed away. <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div> that there exist a large Hokkien community (~1.5 million people) in Southern Wu region! </div></blockquote>Yet another linguistic Balkans. I spent some time there once, in 龍港 of 温州. I found their Hoklo quite difficult to eavesdrop on, and they didn't find it easy to understand me either. There seems to have been major convergence in the three major and two minor tongues of the land even before the Mandarin era. Here is our old thread: <a href="http://hakkadictionary.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11459&hilit=north+of+hokkien&sid=23b92655e30cb6375edec22e3ef673dd" class="postlink">http://hakkadictionary.com/forums/viewt ... 2e3ef673dd</a> <br><br>The 蛮話 language in the area seemed the most fascinating to me -- one of the hill languages, poss. with clear non-Sino roots and not really falling into any of the well-known Sino language groups.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7909">amhoanna</a> — Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:17 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[amhoanna]]></name></author> <updated>2012-11-17T05:18:02+00:00</updated> <published>2012-11-17T05:18:02+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85372#p85372</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85372#p85372"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: An Interesting interview in Hokkien]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85372#p85372"><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>I guess part of the reasons that Malacca Baba speaks Malay natively might be that they lived longer in MSia and intermarried more with Malays. Is my guess somewhat correct? </div></blockquote>I think so, but to add to this, they arrived or began arriving in the area before Dutch and Anglo rule, which seems to have been the start of separation between "Chinese" and "Malay".<br><br>We hear a lot about 閩粵人 emigrating south during the Ming and the Ching, but I've been to many parts and many ports of SEA... Pretty much every single person I've ever spoken to here in a Sino language was the child or grandchild of people who emigrated in ROC times. I've never had the satisfaction of someone telling me in Hokkien or Cantonese that their people arrived in Ching times. Meanwhile, there are a lot of people who could pass for locals in modern-day 閩粵 and typically claim some or full Chinese ancestry, yet speak no Sino languages and don't have much of a Chinese identity. This suggests that ROC-era 閩粵 emigrants saw themselves in a starkly different way, poss. b/c of ROC-era nationalistic thought and propaganda, which the PRC has 発揚光大'd. <br><br>I was about to mention the 明鄉 and 清人, but maybe I already have.<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>In fact, one could even ask oneself if it is appropriate to use the term "Baba" to cover the "nativized Chinese" of all 3 cities (and other parts of Indonesia).</div></blockquote>Very interesting pt. As for the "facts", I've a feeling most of the info on the web is actually mis-info.<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>So do Baba Hokkien and Sinkheh Hokkien somehow "converge" into today's Penang Hokkien?</div></blockquote>I believe so. I've heard it's common for Penangites to speak "mainstream" Penang Hokkien when out and about, but switch to a slightly different dialect at home -- usually b/c the grandparents were born in Hokkien and speak a homeland dialect.<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>from Malacca who speaks fluent Hokkien and told me the opposite (that Hokkien was widely spoken there). His Hokkien is quite different from Taiwanese or Singapore Hokkien though. </div></blockquote>I was there once. Didn't find the Hokkien to be too different, but I may've been talking to sinkheh. I knew someone from Muar whose pronunciation of 汝 had the central vowel. One time she mentioned that her mother also says "lí", like the TWese, but that in Muar this is regarded as a "country" pronunciation. And her mother came from somewhere in the countryside outside Muar.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7909">amhoanna</a> — Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:18 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[SimL]]></name></author> <updated>2012-11-15T04:10:36+00:00</updated> <published>2012-11-15T04:10:36+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85371#p85371</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85371#p85371"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: An Interesting interview in Hokkien]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85371#p85371"><![CDATA[ Hi everyone!<br><br>I'm a bit busy at the moment, so just a very quick note. Thanks for all responses. <br><br>Thanks for posting information on those two books Mark. They're both very interesting, and I have them at home. The Baba one for more than 10 years now, the Penang Chinese one only in the last few years. <br><br>I have to admit that I hadn't noticed the dificiencies in the area of language, in the Baba book. Ah-bin: of all the Forum members, I'm the main one (probably the only one) who goes on about Tang-Min and the absence of the f-. The Tang-min stuff I read about in my early 20's already, and it's pretty fundamental to my conception of Hokkien - so, any detailed refutation or further explanation of its incorrectness would be much appreciated. In all probability I indeed learnt of this from R.A.D. Forrest, as this book was available in the State Library of the Northern Territory, when I was living in Darwin. The f-theory I only learnt about from Wikipedia in the last 1-2 years (and I know your reservations about Wikipedia!). Unfortunately, I can't even find that article again now. <br><br>I was lucky enough to meet the author of the Penang Chinese book when I was in Penang. He was a very helpful person - a sort of "Old World Gentleman", with an air of kindness and graciousness about him, totally unpretentious. I was seeking help on some background to my grandparents' marriage scroll, but unfortunately he was unable to throw any additional light on it.<br><br>I listened with great interest to the 宋慶齡 speech. Pity it was such a short fragment, but fascinating nevertheless. Many thanks, and I encourage all readers to post other such similar things in the future - and not to have any concerns about such things being "off-topic"!<br><br>I'll write/post more when I have more time.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=977">SimL</a> — Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:10 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[ransek]]></name></author> <updated>2012-11-14T20:39:31+00:00</updated> <published>2012-11-14T20:39:31+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85370#p85370</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85370#p85370"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: An Interesting interview in Hokkien]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85370#p85370"><![CDATA[ Hi SimL,<br><br>Glad to know that my post stimulated more discussions in this forum. I am trying read to a few old threads everyday. But frankly speaking my Hokkien isn't up to the level to understand many details, but I do enjoy the high-level discussions and interesting stories you guys told. <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Is this the same community as you had in mind? I didn't think there was a second such community, so that part of my example was invented</div></blockquote>Yes I was referring to the Xibe people who continue to speak Manchu. Here I'd like to digress a little bit (hope you don't mind). I believe that Mandarin was heavily influenced by Manchurian (and by Khitan and Jurchen in earlier times). This kind of theory was used by many young Chinese netizens to promote Southern Chinese languages as being "true" Chinese (while labeling Mandarin Chinese as 金元虜語). This wasn't the invention of these young people though. A very renowned Chinese scholar 章太炎 coined the term 金元虜語 in early 1900s in order to prevent Mandarin from becoming the national language. Along this direction, there have been a lot of discussions in Chinese forums, many of them becoming politically-charged. I would stop here for now unless there are other people interested in it. <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>And all this to say that while I acknowledge the point that identity creation can be manipulative and politically driven (and that I would, in many such cases, condemn such manipulation), some of the results can still be viewed as positive.</div></blockquote>I completely agree with you on this. In fact, in many cases a sense of cultural identity came into existence when one's culture is being repressed. Without some kind of "creation" process, the culture may disappear without being noticed. Most ordinary people especially in the past would not understand the value of their cultures and in some sense they needed some politicians/intellectuals to help them realize how important their cultures/languages are. <br><br>A very interesting observation I had was regarding the Hoisanese/seiyap people. Most Seiyap people I met have a very strong Cantonese identity and claimed that their language were almost the same as Cantonese (while in fact the two were not mutually intellgible). The good side of this is that the (standard) Cantonese community becomes much stronger with all the Seiyap people speaking Cantonese in public and even using Cantonese in their schools. The bad side is that they do not value their true mother tongue that much and therefore the cultural value of Hoisanese has been largely ignored. <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Finally, thank you for sharing the very interesting information on the Mandarinization process in the PRC. It was all totally new information to me, and broadened my horizons a lot.</div></blockquote>I'm glad that I might be the first who posted the situation in Mainland China. By the way I prefer "Mainland China" (or simply China) because I do not really identify myself with the PRC government, to the extent that I do not like the flag (which symbolizes their revolutionary idea rather than the Chinese culture). But I feel totally fine being referred to as "PRC Chinese" because I know you guys are not trying to convey any political meaning. <br><br>And I totally agree with your point that there were more incentives in SEA to teach in Mandarin. But i'd like to add that "teaching in Mandarin" does not necessarily lead to Mandariziation, or the loss of non-Mandarin Chinese languages. As far as I know, Hokkien remained strong in Singapore despite years of Mandarin-medium eduction until the onset of "speak Mandarin campaign". Also, after a decade or so of teaching in Mandarin in major Cantonese cities, Cantonese still dominates in the Pearl River Delta (with the exception of Shenzhen where the ratio of immigrants/natives is around 9:1--yet even in this case the vast majority of young people from Shenzhen, regardless of their background, are able to converse in Cantonese. This exemplifies how strong Cantonese is). The most important thing is still how people value their languages and if they make efforts to retain the usage of the language in family and in the public. Another important thing is media. In Italy, Italian did not become dominant in those non-Italian speaking regions until the rise of television. In the case of Cantonese, having so many TV channels greatly helps the preservation and promotion of the language.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3606">ransek</a> — Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:39 pm</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> </feed>