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	<title>Chinese languages</title>
	<subtitle>Chinese languages</subtitle>
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	<updated>2012-06-07T13:29:56+00:00</updated>

	<author><name><![CDATA[Chinese languages]]></name></author>
	<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/app.php/feed/topic/57982</id>

		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[FutureSpy]]></name></author>
		<updated>2012-06-07T13:29:56+00:00</updated>

		<published>2012-06-07T13:29:56+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84976#p84976</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84976#p84976"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Misc. random questions: pronunciation, final particles,]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div>I hesitate to use 市內 for DOWNTOWN in any sense of the word DOWNTOWN.</div></blockquote>Whoops, my bad for the mistranslation  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed">  My textbook had 市内 in Japanese too, and for some reason I always associated 市内 it to "downtown". But according to the dictionary, it's actually "inside the town" or "in the neighborhood". So maybe the sentence translates better into "take a look around" instead of "downtown", right?<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>"dz-" speakers may use "dj-" instead. Ditto. TWese speakers tend to palatalize their affricates before -i-...</div></blockquote>You said that about j/l in another thread. Does any changes occur with ch too? I said I heard /ts/, but now I hear /tz/ in all cases except when followed by -i, but when there's a preceding -i like in jī-cha̍p, it sounds more like /dʑ/ (not sure it it's really that, sorry for the inaccurate transcription)... I was going to check that with the Tâi-lâm speaker, but it was raining and the darn rain stopped right after I lost the bus, and it's even sunny outside now.  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil">  Hopefully I'll meet my Tâi-tiong old lady friend this weekend, so I'll try to hear to her pronunciation...<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>FutureSpy, you are welcome. Btw why the emoticon " <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed"> "?  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green">   </div></blockquote>No idea, it was supposed to be " <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":P" title="Razz"> "<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=14689">FutureSpy</a> — Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:29 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Ah-bin]]></name></author>
		<updated>2012-06-07T08:15:10+00:00</updated>

		<published>2012-06-07T08:15:10+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84974#p84974</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84974#p84974"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Misc. random questions: pronunciation, final particles, ]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div>People just refer to parts of town by name. It'll be interesting to see what the M'sians have to say on this. </div></blockquote>What I have heard in Penang for "downtown" (meaning Georgetown) was pho-té 坡底, and "go downtown" was lóh-pho 落坡. I think something like this is used all over Malaysia, in other languages as well.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=1174">Ah-bin</a> — Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:15 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[amhoanna]]></name></author>
		<updated>2012-06-07T04:28:11+00:00</updated>

		<published>2012-06-07T04:28:11+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84972#p84972</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84972#p84972"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Misc. random questions: pronunciation, final particles, ]]></title>

		
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This all seems like TWese usage to me. <br><br>I hesitate to use 市內 for DOWNTOWN in any sense of the word DOWNTOWN. I think 市內 means WITHIN THE CITY PROPER, not including the suburbs, but inc. all districts w/i the city proper. 市中心 can be used to mean CITY CENTER but it's not a common usage. People just refer to parts of town by name. It'll be interesting to see what the M'sians have to say on this. <br><br>Another story. I took a day-trip to Melaka a few yrs ago with two others, inc. a TWese girl in her early 20s. She was from the Tailam County countryside, where people tend to be proud of the Hoklo language no matter their age or sex, but she was kind of an exception, I think b/c she was a top student and had spent four yrs attending the Univ. of Taiwan in Taipak, plus 1 or 2 yrs of grad school. She spoke Hoklo like crap, totally Mandarized, yet made fun of my non-native Hoklo and tried to switch me to Mandarin. Yet when we got to Melaka, somehow -- and partly under my influence -- she got the idea that she was supposed to talk to the local orang Tionghoa in Hoklo instead of Mandarin. So at one pt a random stranger and his family were giving us a ride back to the bus terminal, and she asks them a question like "Mâlakkah ê Hoâjîn lóng toà tī kaugoā ahsī chhīkhu?" With a heavy Mandophone accent. And to my slight surprise the Malaccans had no trouble understanding her.<br><br>I think one of her "stimuli" was earlier when someone was telling us in Mandarin that the bus fares had "qi3 jia4" (起價) considerably, and she didn't understand it till I said "khíkè" in Hoklo. It's interesting that M'sian Mandarin is more Hoklicized than TWese Mandarin even though TW is more heavily Hokkien, or that there's more Hoklo on TV in M'sia than in TW.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=7909">amhoanna</a> — Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:28 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[FutureSpy]]></name></author>
		<updated>2012-06-06T02:45:52+00:00</updated>

		<published>2012-06-06T02:45:52+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84969#p84969</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84969#p84969"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Misc. random questions: pronunciation, final particles,]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div>Góa siuⁿ-b(o)eh khì chhī-lāi khòaⁿ khòaⁿ (l)eh.<br><span style="font-size:150%;line-height:116%">我想欲去市內看看咧。</span><br>I'd like to go take a look downtown.<br><br>Hó. Góa kah sió-bē/mōe/moāi kā lí <strong class="text-strong">àn-nāi</strong>.<br><span style="font-size:150%;line-height:116%">好。我佮小妹共你<strong class="text-strong">案内</strong>。</span><br>I see. We and my (younger) sister will guide you.<br><br><span style="font-size:70%;line-height:116%">Sorry for the rough translations</span></div></blockquote>amhoanna, any words you would use to replace it in Taiwanese?<br><br>niuc, what would you use in this sentence in 峇眼話?<br><br>What about Penang?<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=14689">FutureSpy</a> — Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:45 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[AndrewAndrew]]></name></author>
		<updated>2012-06-05T10:06:06+00:00</updated>

		<published>2012-06-05T10:06:06+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84967#p84967</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84967#p84967"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Misc. random questions: pronunciation, final particles,]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Niuc, I know many southern Chinese can't, but if you can distinguish <br><br>z- [ts] c- [tsh] s- [s], <br>zh- [tʂ], ch- [tʂh], sh- [ʂ], and <br>j- [tɕ], q- [tɕh], x- [ɕ] in Mandarin, and  <br>ch- [tʃ] and sh- [ʃ] in English<br><br>then you have all of these already.</div></blockquote>Thank you so much, Andrew! <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green"> <br>Now I understand the differences between ts and tʂ etc (first &amp; second lines). I still do not fully understand about tɕ though, as I assume pinyin "ji" is just another way to write "tsi"...   </div></blockquote>[ɕ] is the Hanyu pinyin x-, what in Wade-Giles would have been written as hs-. Just add a t- to the front and deaspirate/aspirate to get j-/q-.<br><br><blockquote class="uncited"><div><blockquote class="uncited"><div>I'm not sure whether it's adequate to represent Hokkien, but apparently in Taiwan they distinguish between<br>ji [ʑi], chi [tɕi], chhi [tɕhi], si [ɕi], and  <br>j- [dz], ts- [ts], tsh- [tsh], s- [s], for other finals</div></blockquote>Do you have word samples for those?</div></blockquote>So apparently ji is pronounced [dʑi] (sorry for the error above) but joah is pronounced [dzua?]. In Penang we use the same [dʑ] for both.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=7712">AndrewAndrew</a> — Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:06 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[niuc]]></name></author>
		<updated>2012-06-04T14:18:15+00:00</updated>

		<published>2012-06-04T14:18:15+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84963#p84963</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84963#p84963"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Misc. random questions: pronunciation, final particles,]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div>niuc, thanks for the info on your variant  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed"> </div></blockquote>FutureSpy, you are welcome. Btw why the emoticon " <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed"> "?  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green"> <br><br>And many thanks for complete explanation of àn-nāi 案内!<br><br>And I have the same impression as you that 料理 in Mandarin is mainly used for 日本料理 and 韓國料理. For Chinese cuisines, it's called 閩菜, 粵菜, 台菜 etc.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=527">niuc</a> — Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:18 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[niuc]]></name></author>
		<updated>2012-06-04T14:08:33+00:00</updated>

		<published>2012-06-04T14:08:33+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84962#p84962</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84962#p84962"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Misc. random questions: pronunciation, final particles, ]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div>Niuc, I know many southern Chinese can't, but if you can distinguish <br><br>z- [ts] c- [tsh] s- [s], <br>zh- [tʂ], ch- [tʂh], sh- [ʂ], and <br>j- [tɕ], q- [tɕh], x- [ɕ] in Mandarin, and  <br>ch- [tʃ] and sh- [ʃ] in English<br><br>then you have all of these already.</div></blockquote>Thank you so much, Andrew! <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green"> <br>Now I understand the differences between ts and tʂ etc (first &amp; second lines). I still do not fully understand about tɕ though, as I assume pinyin "ji" is just another way to write "tsi"...   <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>I'm not sure whether it's adequate to represent Hokkien, but apparently in Taiwan they distinguish between<br>ji [ʑi], chi [tɕi], chhi [tɕhi], si [ɕi], and  <br>j- [dz], ts- [ts], tsh- [tsh], s- [s], for other finals</div></blockquote>Do you have word samples for those?<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Douglas also notices the distinction, using ch- only for e, i, and ts- for everything else. </div></blockquote>Actually I have been wondering what's the real difference... <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed"> <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>I do notice that in Taiwan, si is pronounced with a [ɕ] like Mandarin xi, whereas in Penang it is a clear [s]. Chi/Chhi in Penang are like Mandarin ji [tɕi] and qi [tɕhi].</div></blockquote>Do you/Penang differentiate between tɕi and tsi? Any examples?<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Both ji and joah in Penang seem to be the same [ʑ]. I have not yet bottomed out the rest, but will listen closely in the next few weeks.</div></blockquote>Could you please give some examples of Penang words for chi, chhi, ji, choah, and joah?<br>Again, thank you!<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=527">niuc</a> — Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:08 pm</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[amhoanna]]></name></author>
		<updated>2012-06-04T04:21:10+00:00</updated>

		<published>2012-06-04T04:21:10+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84961#p84961</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84961#p84961"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Misc. random questions: pronunciation, final particles, ]]></title>

		
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Futurespy, kámsiā lí thêkiong chià'ê chuliāu. <br><br>The only meaning I know for ànnāi in TWese is TO HELP SOMEONE BY BRINGING THEM TO WHERE THEY NEED/WANT TO GO WITHIN AN ARRANGEMENT. It's not part of my active vocab., I'm still observing to see how other people use it. I've never heard anyone in or below my age group use it.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=7909">amhoanna</a> — Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:21 am</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[FutureSpy]]></name></author>
		<updated>2012-06-02T19:10:38+00:00</updated>

		<published>2012-06-02T19:10:38+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84954#p84954</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84954#p84954"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Misc. random questions: pronunciation, final particles,]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div>I don't understand àn-nāi.</div></blockquote>Sorry, niuc. I was going to answer that, but I ended up forgetting it.<br><br>àn-nāi is written 案内 in Japanese. I'll try to give a few examples along with definitions from EDICT.<br><br>あんない [案内] (n, vs) information, guidance, leading<br>- If you ever come to Barcelona, I'll 案内 you through the city.<br><br>あんないじょ [案内所] (n) information desk<br>The place where you ask for help (in a bus station, for an instance?) is called 案内所 annaijo in Japanese.<br><br>あんないしょ [案内書] (n) guidebook, guide<br>案内書 annaisho also applies to exam guides, and perhaps guidelines books.<br><br>An 案内アナウンス annai ANAUSU is like those announcements at the airport or stations.<br><br>I'm not sure, tho, what definitions apply to TW Hokkien.<br><br>As for 料理 meaning "cuisine" in Mandarin, doesn't that have a more limited usage, such as expressions like 日本料理?<br><br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Very interesting! So, you address your brother nowadays by his personal name?</div></blockquote>Yep. Unfortunately, but we don't talk that much  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green"> <br><br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>What about the northeast and north? Recife, Fortaleza, Sao Luis?</div></blockquote>I'll try to locate an audio file a friend of mine from Recife sent me 9 years ago and send it to you. It's probably better than any description I could give you. As for the others... I had a friend from Fortal. and he spoke completely without the Northeastern accent stereotype, but I don't know if everyone there speak like that. As for São Luís, no idea, but my bet is that their accent is very pronounced.<br><br>There's no "Northeastern accent" as most people here think there's. Most of them do have a few common features, but if you listen closely they can be very different. I don't know to what extend they're closer to Iberian Portuguese, but they do share many words and expressions, but also have localisms whose usage isn't widespread outside the region. Phonetically, all I can think of now is the way they pronounce te and ti, which sound like real ti, unlike our /tʃi/. Of course that's also a generalization. Natives from the region I'm studying at now don't use tʃ but a simple t (not palatized), so even the so-called "paulista" (from state of São Paulo, except regions nearby São Paulo city) accent has many variations. They do have the typical "caipira" (lit. "hick", with all due respect) post-vowel retroflex R (not sure of how exact that description is since I'm not very familiar with linguistic terminology) tho. BTW, I think in Bahia they don't say "você e eu", but "você e mais eu". Galicians also say it like that: "ti/tu e máis eu".<br><br>Anyway, you'd better ask locals from these regions, as I haven't met many people from Northeast, so I'm unable to provide you with detailed and accurate information on that  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed"><p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=14689">FutureSpy</a> — Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:10 pm</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[amhoanna]]></name></author>
		<updated>2012-05-31T17:28:20+00:00</updated>

		<published>2012-05-31T17:28:20+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84943#p84943</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84943#p84943"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Misc. random questions: pronunciation, final particles,]]></title>

		
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Niuc, thanks for the grammar clarification! Very helpful.<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>rolled R (Southern Brazilian Portuguese still retain it to some degree, but not so rolled)</div></blockquote>What about the northeast and north? Recife, Fortaleza, Sao Luis?<br><br>I've heard that the Portuguese up there is much more Iberian, with hints of a time when Portugal was an Arab colony.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=7909">amhoanna</a> — Thu May 31, 2012 5:28 pm</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[SimL]]></name></author>
		<updated>2012-05-31T16:08:26+00:00</updated>

		<published>2012-05-31T16:08:26+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84941#p84941</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84941#p84941"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Misc. random questions: pronunciation, final particles,]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div>Besides, when I was very small I'd call my brother あんちゃ ancha, which is my grandma's variant equivalent to 兄貴 aniki and お兄ちゃん oniichan, but obviously I don't do that anymore since a long time.</div></blockquote>Hi FutureSpy,<br><br>Very interesting! So, you address your brother nowadays by his personal name?<br><br>My two younger brothers are 5-6 years younger than me, and only one year apart in age from one another, so the youngest never addressed the middle one as "ji-ko". However, they both addressed me as "ko-ko" when they were very young (there was no need to address me as "<em class="text-italics">tua</em>-ko", as I was the only "ko" around).<br><br>Once we got to Australia, the "ko-ko" seemed perhaps a bit odd, so they modified it into a nickname for me, and started addressing me as "kokes". (That's "English" spelling conventions, so rhymes with "folks", "hoax", "jokes", "pokes", "soaks".) <br><br>That's what they call me to this day. It's been that way since I was 15-16, so I don't even notice that it must be quite odd to someone who doesn't know the family. In their emails to me, they write "Hi Kokes" too. I always sign my emails back "Sim" though.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=977">SimL</a> — Thu May 31, 2012 4:08 pm</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[FutureSpy]]></name></author>
		<updated>2012-05-30T16:14:57+00:00</updated>

		<published>2012-05-30T16:14:57+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84931#p84931</id>
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		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Misc. random questions: pronunciation, final particles,]]></title>

		
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niuc, thanks for the info on your variant  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed"> <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>! I don't think I can differentiate between tɕ, ts and tʃ; or s, ɕ and ʂ; nor knowing which one I use! </div></blockquote>I don't know the differences between all these either  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green"> <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>This would appear to be an interesting phenomenon which has a wider application than either being Hokkien or being in Singapore.</div></blockquote>Indeed. My elder brother and me call my grandparents じいちゃん jiichan and ばあちゃん baachan, even if in my grandparents' variant it's simply じー jii and ばー baa (that's also how they refer to themselves when talking to me). Besides, when I was very small I'd call my brother あんちゃ ancha, which is my grandma's variant equivalent to 兄貴 aniki and お兄ちゃん oniichan, but obviously I don't do that anymore since a long time.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=14689">FutureSpy</a> — Wed May 30, 2012 4:14 pm</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[SimL]]></name></author>
		<updated>2012-05-30T12:00:52+00:00</updated>

		<published>2012-05-30T12:00:52+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84930#p84930</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84930#p84930"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Misc. random questions: pronunciation, final particles,]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div><blockquote class="uncited"><div>BTW, watching Singaporen movies I saw that, despite speaking in Mandarin, even young people call their grandpas a-kong and a-má. That's not Mandarin, right?</div></blockquote>Correct, those are Hokkien terms widely used in Singapore Mandarin.</div></blockquote>This would appear to be an interesting phenomenon which has a wider application than either being Hokkien or being in Singapore.<br><br>When I was young we had Italian neighbours in Australia. The grandmother was definitely born in Italy, the son was either born in Italy or Australia (probably the former), and the grandchildren were definitely born in Australia. <br><br>The grandchildren didn't speak any Italian (though they could understand it), but they all addressed their grandmother as "Nonna", which (as far as I understand) is the Italian word for Grandmother.<br><br>Similarly, my little niece of 10 speaks no Hokkien (to say nothing of Mandarin). She was born in Australia, and her mother is of Anglo-Saxon descent, and my brother (=her father) left Penang at the age of 5, so the chance that she might ever learn Hokkien were close to non-existent. Nevertheless, she addresses my parents as "Ah Kong" and "Ah Mah" (that's the traditional informal Malaysian orthography, it's of course "a-kong" and "a-ma" in POJ, as there is no glottal stop in any of these syllables). My little niece goes one step further and addresses me as "tua pEh", which I was a little bit sceptical about when it first started (it was my mother who was very keen on this), but which I'm nowadays completely delighted about!<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=977">SimL</a> — Wed May 30, 2012 12:00 pm</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[AndrewAndrew]]></name></author>
		<updated>2012-05-30T23:19:41+00:00</updated>

		<published>2012-05-30T10:36:13+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84929#p84929</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84929#p84929"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Hokkien j, ch, chh, s, ts, tsh]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84929#p84929"><![CDATA[
<blockquote class="uncited"><div>Wow, you guys rock! I don't think I can differentiate between tɕ, ts and tʃ; or s, ɕ and ʂ; nor knowing which one I use! <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed"> Next time when I meet anyone of you, please remember to teach me how to differentiate (and also glottal stop!) ok? <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green"> </div></blockquote>Niuc, I know many southern Chinese can't, but if you can distinguish <br><br>z- [ts] c- [tsh] s- [s], <br>zh- [tʂ], ch- [tʂh], sh- [ʂ], and <br>j- [tɕ], q- [tɕh], x- [ɕ] in Mandarin, and  <br>ch- [tʃ] and sh- [ʃ] in English<br><br>then you have all of these already.<br><br>I'm not sure whether it's adequate to represent Hokkien, but apparently in Taiwan they distinguish between<br>ji [ʑi], chi [tɕi], chhi [tɕhi], si [ɕi], and  <br>j- [dz], ts- [ts], tsh- [tsh], s- [s], for other finals<br><br>Douglas also notices the distinction, using ch- only for e, i, and ts- for everything else. For chh-, he says that: <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Sometimes chh has a sound more nearly approaching to an aspirated ts. This occurs occasionally when chh is followed by a, o', u, or ng. Generally even before these letters the sound remains the same, or very nearly the same, as the usual chh, but sometimes it might have been written tsh or ts'h, especially in the dialects of Chin-chew and Tung-an, and in other cases it seems about half-way between chh and ts'h. But as these sounds are not very common, and as they shade gradu- ally into the normal chh, I have thought it best not to make any change in the spelling usual at Amoy.</div></blockquote>I do notice that in Taiwan, si is pronounced with a [ɕ] like Mandarin xi, whereas in Penang it is a clear [s]. Chi/Chhi in Penang are like Mandarin ji [tɕi] and qi [tɕhi].<br><br>Both ji and joah in Penang seem to be the same [ʑ]. I have not yet bottomed out the rest, but will listen closely in the next few weeks.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=7712">AndrewAndrew</a> — Wed May 30, 2012 10:36 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[niuc]]></name></author>
		<updated>2012-05-29T09:52:27+00:00</updated>

		<published>2012-05-29T09:52:27+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84921#p84921</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84921#p84921"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Misc. random questions: pronunciation, final particles, ]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84921#p84921"><![CDATA[
Wow, you guys rock! I don't think I can differentiate between tɕ, ts and tʃ; or s, ɕ and ʂ; nor knowing which one I use! <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed"> Next time when I meet anyone of you, please remember to teach me how to differentiate (and also glottal stop!) ok? <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green"> <br><br>In my variant:<br>明仔載 (tomorrow) is miá-tsaì, and rarely bîn-á-tsài.<br>明年 (next year) is also mûa-nî, seldom mê-nî but so far not mâ-nî.<br>頂年 tíng-nî or 舊年 kū-nî (last year) are usually followed by 仔 (in this case "_a" in T1 after 年 which is still in T5).<br>前年 tsâiⁿ-nî can be understood but must be very rare.<br>存年 tsûn_nî (two years ago) is also followed by 仔 (in this case "_ä" in neutral tone after 年 which is also in neutral tone).<br>讀書 thàk-tsu· (u·=ɯ) is more common, but 讀冊 thàk-tsheh is also used. <br><br>In my impression, 書 is thicker and more formal (e.g. text book) than 冊 (can be notebook, small book, comic etc). However, I ever read somewhere (here?) that originally 冊 was official and 書 colloquial, or something like that. What is your impression &amp; what do you think?<br><br>I don't understand àn-nāi. And liāu-lí in my variant primarily means to manage (which seems to be the original meaning in Chinese; ref: <a href="http://baike.baidu.com/view/316936.htm" class="postlink">http://baike.baidu.com/view/316936.htm</a>). Only much later I came to know that it also meant cuisine type. <br><br>For me, 我mā愛熱天 and 我mā是愛熱天 is very similar if not identical, the latter with more emphasis. In my usage, both can mean  I LOVE SUMMER (AS WELL AS WINTER) and LIKE THEM, I'M ALSO A SUMMER-LOVER. <br>However, 我是愛熱天 is different. In my variant, it's more natural to add neutralized ë (个) after the sentence, and it means I AM THE TYPE THAT LOVES SUMMER (BUT NOT WINTER). Without ë (个), it sounds hanging, waiting for e.g. m7是愛冷天 or m7-kú我buē擋个熱...<br><br>Ma7 &amp; ma7-si7 sandhi regularly.<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>BTW, watching Singaporen movies I saw that, despite speaking in Mandarin, even young people call their grandpas a-kong and a-má. That's not Mandarin, right?</div></blockquote>Correct, those are Hokkien terms widely used in Singapore Mandarin.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=527">niuc</a> — Tue May 29, 2012 9:52 am</p><hr />
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