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	<title>Chinese languages</title>
	<subtitle>Chinese languages</subtitle>
	<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/index.php" />
	<updated>2005-02-21T04:05:25+00:00</updated>

	<author><name><![CDATA[Chinese languages]]></name></author>
	<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/app.php/feed/topic/1611</id>

		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-02-21T04:05:25+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-02-21T04:05:25+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13646#p13646</id>
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		<title type="html"><![CDATA[La la li la tam pong]]></title>

		
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Andrew<br><br>"m-ai ti liao" = m7 ai3 ti8 liao2<br>ti8 至(手旁) = beh4 (want something, wish to have something)<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:05 am</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-02-19T03:11:33+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-02-19T03:11:33+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13601#p13601</id>
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Eng Wai: it is true that the sense of identity is unfortunately dependent on race, however you do get the odd Indian or Malay who can speak fluent Hokkien. The trouble now is that many of the English-educated Chinese are worse at Hokkien than some Indians and Malays! I am no exception - my grandparents spoke Hokkien to each other, but Hokkien/English to my mother, and my parents speak Hokkien/English to each other, but English only to me.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:11 am</p><hr />
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		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-02-19T03:05:32+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-02-19T03:05:32+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13600#p13600</id>
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I think it is good that people are interested. Most people don't even know the difference between the various Hokkien dialects, so getting them to recognise that the differences are not just local inventions or corruptions but because of people coming from different parts of Hokkien is often the first step! Once they recognise that, they can study whatever dialect of Hokkien they wish. <br><br>But we do need books about Hokkien written in English or Malay, because many people do not read Chinese. It would be good if someone were to write a basic textbook or language course.<br><br>By the way, what is the ti7/3 as in "m-ai ti liau", don't want/need it anymore.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:05 am</p><hr />
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		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-02-18T00:43:04+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-02-18T00:43:04+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13587#p13587</id>
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I just have to add we can't underestimate penang minnan people by asking penang chuanchiu to learn chiangchiu language as Andrew suggested.My friend purposely made a trip to amoy,chiang and chuan just to listen how they speak.He learnt a lot.At least he knows chuanchiu use seh not kong although he doesn't know  the hanzi beacuse he is malay educated.<br>I am sure all of us will meet some old or young minnan people in Penang asking what is the correct way  to speak their minnan .<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:43 am</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-02-18T00:23:04+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-02-18T00:23:04+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13586#p13586</id>
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It is getting worse.English or chinese educated parents are only interested to speak manglish and malaysian kind of mandarin to their children.You can't change their decision .<br>Anyway,as I have said it many times every minnan people in malaysia have too much to learn for minnan language.Without having some dict,don't expect any kind of improvement other than words replace with malay,english  and mandarin.Minnan expert can accept we speak some malay words in it but not to the level of mess up with  the vowel and consonant. They also use agak,agak-agak in xiamen.<br>I don't think Prof.Lirulong (Nanan)can happily accept  nanan people in malaysia can't speak Nanan language correctly.This is why he has to write Nanan fangyanzhi for Nanan people outside china.nanan people in china don't need this papers at all.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:23 am</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-02-17T15:42:55+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-02-17T15:42:55+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13585#p13585</id>
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The idendity of Penangite, not least Penang Chinese, plays a significant part of our idendity in this multipolar world. While the number of non Buddhist, non-Taoist, non-Mandarin-speaking, non BN supporter etc etc is not insignificant, Penang Chinese largely consist of Hokkiens who speak Penang Hokkien. Even those non-Hokkien like me can speak Peanng Hokkien as well.  It will take immense effort to erase the Penang Hokkien trait from those Penangite. After all, language is the tool for expression. Penang Hokkien is the grass root language, in contrary to Mandarin as the classroom language, Malay as the compulsory national language and English as the Posh language.<br><br>Seems like, at least in this forum,  no one FROM Penang despise Hokkien. However, there are still much difference on opinions on how to preserve the language  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed"> <br><br>The active users in this Hokkien is not big enough. If not, I would like to conduct a few online polls to know what the others think.<br><br>Cheers<br><br>Eng Wai<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:42 pm</p><hr />
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		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-02-17T12:49:13+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-02-17T12:49:13+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13582#p13582</id>
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		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: La la li la tam pong]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Hokkien has become an identity of northern ppl, especially youngsters love to use Hokkien to show their identity as a Penangite. Cuz, you know, Penang is a pride for Penangite. </div></blockquote>Wow, thanks for telling me that. As a true Penangite, this is really wonderful news.  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":D" title="Very Happy"> </div></blockquote>There is a very strong sense of identity among Penangites, and the language is a large part of that identity. We feel this is our language, regardless of whether we are Chiangchiu or Chuanchiu or Teochiu or Hakka. Just look at the number of active contributors to this forum who are from Penang.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Thu Feb 17, 2005 12:49 pm</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-02-16T12:40:01+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-02-16T12:40:01+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13566#p13566</id>
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		<title type="html"><![CDATA[La la li la tam pong]]></title>

		
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tsui loh tsui peng peng is used in exactly the same way as eeny meeny miny moe in English.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:40 pm</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-02-15T14:27:12+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-02-15T14:27:12+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13553#p13553</id>
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		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: La la li la tam pong]]></title>

		
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div>I wonder if there is any meaning for "som" or "tri" !?</div></blockquote>Re-reading this, I would speculate that "tri" is the Hokkien pronunciation of English "three", because we go "one", "two", and then "SOM" (which is on the count of "three").<br><br>I have no idea about the meaning of the word "som" though. I always thought of it as the verb associated with "bringing your hand forward and displaying your chosen symbol", but perhaps it has its own independent meaning.<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>"zhui1 lou4 zhui1 peng3 peng1<br>zhui3 zhui3 chiak3 pa4 cou1 lang3 peng1"</div></blockquote> and <blockquote class="uncited"><div>I'm sorry, I don't know this game, nor the chant.</div></blockquote>I was re-reading this thread today and read what I wrote. Amazingly, this chant was buried DEEP in my sub-conscious. When I wrote the above in mid-January, I had no recollection of the chant, but, now, one month later, mid-February (perhaps triggered by reading it one month ago), the chant is perfectly familiar. I can even remember the "tune" we chanted it to. However, I still don't remember what we used the chant for. The procedure you describe (for separating people into two or more groups) seems quite plausible, but I don't have any explicit memory of using it in this way. Weird that the chant itself is quite familiar to me, but the circumstances in which it was used has now totally disappeared from my memory.<br><br>Regards,<br>Sim.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:27 pm</p><hr />
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		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-02-15T08:35:39+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-02-15T08:35:39+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13544#p13544</id>
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Hi<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>I will try to speak Hokkien to anyone when i just know him/her. Now, I am even finding friends from northern in my university, situated in Selangor, to practice it. After 4 years of practice, I am now a fluent speaker. I am now on my way to learn more genuine words (those words usually not used by youngsters) from the elderly.</div></blockquote>That's just great. Wonderful to see your enthusiasm for Hokkien.<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Hokkien has become an identity of northern ppl, especially youngsters love to use Hokkien to show their identity as a Penangite. Cuz, you know, Penang is a pride for Penangite. </div></blockquote>Wow, thanks for telling me that. As a true Penangite, this is really wonderful news.  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":D" title="Very Happy"> <br><br>Regards,<br>Sim.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:35 am</p><hr />
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		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-02-14T15:46:20+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-02-14T15:46:20+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13537#p13537</id>
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[quote="Sim"]Moreover, Hokkien, or Penang Hokkien is quite limited at times. Even a person who is proficient in Hokkien will find it hard to express precise and complicated ideas. Mandarin having been used as the lingua franca among the Chinese, honoured as language of government, and employed as language of modern writing simply reinforces its superior status among the Chinese languages. <br>quote]<br><br>I doubt this statement. This is the matter of habit. There is no problem to express precise and complicated ideas in Hokkien. Just that many ppl like to say it in Mandarin/English when encountering these words. Indeed, i am be able to read Chinese characters in Penang Hokkien (either use Quanzhou or Zhangzhou accent for uncommon words) now. But, just that ppl will think that i try to be 'outstanding' or 'arrogant' when i use some terms that most ppl will probably express them in English.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:46 pm</p><hr />
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		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-02-14T15:29:56+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-02-14T15:29:56+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13536#p13536</id>
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<blockquote class="uncited"><div>Hi Eng Wai,<br><br>Thanks for the background information. I was curious because in my generation (I was born in the 50's), I didn't know any Penang Chinese who didn't speak Penang Hokkien (even if they were Cantonese etc). <br><br>I guess Mandarin education progressed even more lately, so that there are Penang families who only speak Mandarin at home. <br><br>On the other hand, I only went to English school, so perhaps all my Chinese friends were naturally not Mandarin speaking, and so, if they spoke any Chinese at all, they would speak Penang Hokkien.<br><br>Great to see that you are so interested in Hokkien. Keep writing on the Forum!<br><br>Sim.<br><br>[%sig%]</div></blockquote>Yup! The above is a very typical way of non-Hokkien Penangite picking up Hokkien.<br><br>I am, too, a non-Hokkien. I am a Teochew who only knows Teochew and Mandarin since i was small. <br><br>I went to a Mandarin school (I would called it as 'Mandarin' school cuz it just teaches Mandarin), and later to Chung Ling High School as well. I used to know little Hokkien enuf for me to buy food outside. I never really talked in Hokkien to anyone for a long conversation bcuz i didn't really mix with many ppl outside.<br><br>Most high school in northern region is very conducive in learning Hokkien, where most students are tend to communicate in Hokkien. Many of my non-Hokkien friends (those Teochew and Cantonese, 2nd and 3rd largest dialect group in Penang) start to learn Hokkien in Chung Ling.<br><br>I was a class monitor which we are forced to be the 'speak mandarin campaign' enforcer. Hence, I have totally no chance to speak Hokkien even in my high school. I start to brush up my Hokkien right after my graduation in order to get myself fit in the community (I am a bit lag compare to others). I will try to speak Hokkien to anyone when i just know him/her. Now, I am even finding friends from northern in my university, situated in Selangor, to practice it. After 4 years of practice, I am now a fluent speaker. I am now on my way to learn more genuine words (those words usually not used by youngsters) from the elderly.<br><br>Hokkien has become an identity of northern ppl, especially youngsters love to use Hokkien to show their identity as a Penangite. Cuz, you know, Penang is a pride for Penangite.<br><br>So, you may find that Hokkien just comprises half of total Chinese population in Penang. But, u can hardly find someone who dunno this language in the northern. No matter who u are, Teochew/Hakka/Hailam, we just speak Hokkien.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:29 pm</p><hr />
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		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-01-13T13:08:59+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-01-13T13:08:59+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=10032#p10032</id>
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It is not about the question of fairness. My mum is a Hakka, my dad is a Heng Hua. Both can speak Penang Hokkien and both converse in Penang Hokkien. The fact that they speak to me in Mandarin is not because Mandarin is neutral to them, but rather Mandarin is more useful for me. Arguebly this is true. All the Chinese books are written in Mandarin.<br><br>If my mother tongue was to be Hokkien, I will find reading Mandarin books a hard task. Just like how I find reading English book troublesome and irritating. Of course everyone can always achieve a level of language mastering through self determination and self studying. However, if you were familiar with a useful language since small, you can really save lots of energy.<br><br>Moreover, Hokkien, or Penang Hokkien is quite limited at times. Even a person who is proficient in Hokkien will find it hard to express precise and complicated ideas. Mandarin having been used as the lingua franca among the Chinese, honoured as language of government, and employed as language of modern writing simply reinforces its superior status among the Chinese languages. <br><br>Furthermore, like a lot of people, mistakenly or unconciously regional languages (fang1 yan2) are treated as dialects, not languages. Mandarin is treated as a standard pronounciation of Chinese. So it is not hard for anyone to adopt this so-called standard Chinese. If they were to realise Hokkien as a seperate language different from Mandarin in pronounciation, grammar and vocabulary, then the issue of language sovereignity and sensitivity might be emphasised and utilised as a political tool, as we can see in Taiwan. Then probably Hokkien speakers will stop speaking Mandarin to their children.<br><br>I don't mean to demean or demote other dialect. I personally think that Hokkien and other dialects can be easily preserved in China but not in oversea Chinese communities. Many people are already struggling to learn proper Mandarin, proper Malay (in case of Malaysia) and proper English simultaneously. For example in Malaysia, there are few different chinese dialect speaking communities, cantonese, minnanese, minbeinese, hakkan. Are they to learn respective languages and ignore Mandarin? So a cantonese has to talk to me in English? I don't like this situation.<br><br>In China mainlang or Taiwan or Hong Kong Macau, they only need to learn 2/3 languages including their mother dialect. There are rooms for it. Iguess the case is different in other foreign countries.<br><br>Eng Wai<br><br>[%sig%]<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:08 pm</p><hr />
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		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-01-12T00:06:57+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-01-12T00:06:57+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=10031#p10031</id>
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Is is fair for family to use mandarin if they are not same origin or maybe another dialect which is not the mother language for both husband and wife.<br>Engwai,<br>There is no one web site for you to learn all about minnan pinyin.There are so many hanzi for one word .<br>This the web site which listed all pinyin in minnan but without sound recording we can't be sure which sound it is .In chuanchiu we have different pitch for each sect.Nan an is not the same with jinjiang.<br><a href="http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw/iug/Ungian/Chokphin/Lunbun/Huho/huho-0.htm" class="postlink">http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw/iug/Ungian ... huho-0.htm</a> click no.3 for pinyin been used so far  <br>Even we don't want to be an expert with Phd in min language,there are still so many things we have to study.There is no shortcut.I won't be sending any links because it is a total waste of time for me.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:06 am</p><hr />
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		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-01-11T17:29:56+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-01-11T17:29:56+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=10030#p10030</id>
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To dissapoint you, I am not particularly interested in Hokkien. Well I do have special feeling towards Penang Hokkien due to my background obviously.<br><br>I will still ask in the forum about anything I want to know, and of course ready to debate with anyone who discriminates Hokkien, Penang Hokkien and MALAYSIAN CHINESE. Ha ha ha.<br><br>In near future I plan to learn the proper way to romanise HOkkien (Church Romanisation) and to indicate the tones. Then you will know my exxact pronounciation of Hokkien. Could you recommend any good and simple website to learn these? (Hong, stop giving endless websites url on every tread!)<br><br>My friend told me that I have an accent when speaking Hokkien. I think it is not an accent problem, but fluency problem. When I first started speaking Hokkien, obviously I was not used to it. I have an interesting, and perhaps a bit biased observation on people speaking Penang Hokkien. When lack of Hokkien vocabulary, English speakers will borrow English words, Mandarin speakers (me) will borrow Mandarin words, and those who are less fluent in both English and Mandarin will borrow Malay words.<br><br>Hope everybody is writing more.<br><br>Eng Wai<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:29 pm</p><hr />
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