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	<title>Chinese languages</title>
	<subtitle>Chinese languages</subtitle>
	<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/index.php" />
	<updated>2008-09-15T12:54:42+00:00</updated>

	<author><name><![CDATA[Chinese languages]]></name></author>
	<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/app.php/feed/topic/1601</id>

		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Mark Yong]]></name></author>
		<updated>2008-09-15T12:54:42+00:00</updated>

		<published>2008-09-15T12:54:42+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21573#p21573</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21573#p21573"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Hokkien treet names]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21573#p21573"><![CDATA[
I just did some research on the Web. It appears I was wrong - Perak Road is, fact <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">大路後</span>.<br><br>Now I wonder where <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">大路</span> is - after all, to have a <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">大路後</span>, logically there must be a <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">大路</span>, right?  <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":D" title="Very Happy"><p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=418">Mark Yong</a> — Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:54 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2008-09-13T00:00:10+00:00</updated>

		<published>2008-09-13T00:00:10+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21564#p21564</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21564#p21564"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Hokkien treet names]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21564#p21564"><![CDATA[
<blockquote class="uncited"><div><blockquote class="uncited"><div><strong class="text-strong">Andrew wrote:</strong><br>For anyone who is interested, I have significantly reformatted and updated the Wikipedia article <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_names_of_George_Town,_Penang" class="postlink">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_nam ... wn,_Penang</a>.<br><br>I managed to get hold of the original article from the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, Straits Branch, which had the original Chinese characters and tone markings and explanations of the origins of the streets. Some of the characters I have updated to conform with the Taiwan MoE standard. <br><br>The article also had lots of Hokkien names of government departments, clan associations, buildings, districts, towns outside George Town, etc., but they were outside the scope of the article. If anyone is interested I can email them a scan.</div></blockquote>This is really good, Andrew! Your list of original Hokkien names for the streets arguably surpasses the ones featured in Khoo Su Nin @ Khoo Salma Nasution's <em class="text-italics">"Streets of George Town, Penang"</em>.<br><br>Just a couple of corrections/additions, if you don't mind (no disrespect meant to the authority of the original article that you quoted):<br><br>1. The <em class="text-italics">chhèng</em> in <em class="text-italics">Phah-chhèng-pơ̄</em>"Rifle Range" should be <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">銃</span>, not <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">槍</span>.<br><br>2. The <em class="text-italics">Soaⁿ</em> in <em class="text-italics">Soaⁿ-thaû-ke</em> "Kimberly Street" should be <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">汕</span>, not <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">山</span> (<span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">汕頭</span> Swatow is another name for <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">潮州</span> Teochew, reflecting the Teochew community living on this street).<br><br>3. If I am not mistaken, Perak Road was simply <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">大路</span> <em class="text-italics">Toā-lơ̄</em>. <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">大路後</span> <em class="text-italics">Toā-lơ̄-aū</em> refers to Perak Lane, the road just off Perak Road.<br><br>4. Carnavon Street also had the nickname <em class="text-italics">koaⁿ-chha-ke</em> <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">棺材街</span>, due to the large number of coffin shops there.<br><br>5. Swatow Lane <em class="text-italics">sin-se-kai</em> <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">新世界</span>, after the amusement park located there, now restored into a food court housing all the hawker stalls that used to line the street.</div></blockquote>Thanks. I have changed the characters, which were purely my fault. I will look for references for the others before I change them, though.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:00 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Mark Yong]]></name></author>
		<updated>2008-09-10T01:46:33+00:00</updated>

		<published>2008-09-10T01:46:33+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21551#p21551</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21551#p21551"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Hokkien treet names]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21551#p21551"><![CDATA[
<blockquote class="uncited"><div><strong class="text-strong">Andrew wrote:</strong><br>The article also had lots of Hokkien names of government departments, clan associations, buildings, districts, towns outside George Town, etc., but they were outside the scope of the article. If anyone is interested I can email them a scan.</div></blockquote>Hi, Andrew,<br><br>Yes, I am interested. Have sent you a private message to this effect.<br><br>Cheers,<br>Mark<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=418">Mark Yong</a> — Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:46 am</p><hr />
]]></content>
	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Mark Yong]]></name></author>
		<updated>2008-09-10T01:47:29+00:00</updated>

		<published>2008-09-10T01:11:57+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21550#p21550</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21550#p21550"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Hokkien treet names]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21550#p21550"><![CDATA[
<blockquote class="uncited"><div><strong class="text-strong">Andrew wrote:</strong><br>For anyone who is interested, I have significantly reformatted and updated the Wikipedia article <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_names_of_George_Town,_Penang" class="postlink">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_nam ... wn,_Penang</a>.<br><br>I managed to get hold of the original article from the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, Straits Branch, which had the original Chinese characters and tone markings and explanations of the origins of the streets. Some of the characters I have updated to conform with the Taiwan MoE standard. <br><br>The article also had lots of Hokkien names of government departments, clan associations, buildings, districts, towns outside George Town, etc., but they were outside the scope of the article. If anyone is interested I can email them a scan.</div></blockquote>This is really good, Andrew! Your list of original Hokkien names for the streets arguably surpasses the ones featured in Khoo Su Nin @ Khoo Salma Nasution's <em class="text-italics">"Streets of George Town, Penang"</em>.<br><br>Just a couple of corrections/additions, if you don't mind (no disrespect meant to the authority of the original article that you quoted):<br><br>1. The <em class="text-italics">chhèng</em> in <em class="text-italics">Phah-chhèng-pơ̄</em>"Rifle Range" should be <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">銃</span>, not <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">槍</span>.<br><br>2. The <em class="text-italics">Soaⁿ</em> in <em class="text-italics">Soaⁿ-thaû-ke</em> "Kimberly Street" should be <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">汕</span>, not <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">山</span> (<span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">汕頭</span> Swatow is another name for <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">潮州</span> Teochew, reflecting the Teochew community living on this street).<br><br>3. If I am not mistaken, Perak Road was simply <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">大路</span> <em class="text-italics">Toā-lơ̄</em>. <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">大路後</span> <em class="text-italics">Toā-lơ̄-aū</em> refers to Perak Lane, the road just off Perak Road.<br><br>4. Carnavon Street also had the nickname <em class="text-italics">koaⁿ-chha-ke</em> <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">棺材街</span>, due to the large number of coffin shops there.<br><br>5. Swatow Lane <em class="text-italics">sin-se-kai</em> <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">新世界</span>, after the amusement park located there, now restored into a food court housing all the hawker stalls that used to line the street.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=418">Mark Yong</a> — Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:11 am</p><hr />
]]></content>
	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Mark Yong]]></name></author>
		<updated>2008-09-10T00:46:43+00:00</updated>

		<published>2008-09-10T00:46:43+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21549#p21549</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21549#p21549"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Hokkien treet names]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21549#p21549"><![CDATA[
<blockquote class="uncited"><div><strong class="text-strong">Andrew wrote:</strong><br>I would also be grateful if anyone could help me finding references for the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penang_Hokkien" class="postlink">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penang_Hokkien</a> article. Wikipedia now frowns on original research, so all articles must cite references for any significant facts.</div></blockquote>Here are a few:<br><br>1. <strong class="text-strong">Nicolas C. Bodman <em class="text-italics">"Spoken Amoy Hokkien Vol. 1 &amp; 2"</em> Spoken Language Services (1987)</strong><br>Strictly speaking, the language used in this book is not the Chiang Chiu-based Penang Hokkien, but Amoy Hokkien. However, there is a 2-page section in Volume 2 that briefly mentions the difference between Penang Hokkien and Amoy Hokkien. Also, the contents of the book are largely based on Malayan life (albeit pre-Independence, so a bit dated).<br><br>2. <strong class="text-strong"><span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">閩南話漳腔辭典, 陳正統 主編, 中華書局</span></strong><br>This is the most comprehensive dictionary of the <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">漳州</span> Chiang Chiu dialect (i.e. the Hokkien sub-dialect that Penang Hokkien is largely based on) that I have come across to date.<br><br>3. <strong class="text-strong"><span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">漳州話概說, 中國人民政治协商會議漳州市委員會, 海風出版社</span></strong><br>An interesting collection of articles and essays of the <span style="font-size:125%;line-height:116%">漳州</span> Chiang Chiu dialect, featuring terminologies found in everyday speech, many of which can be found in Penang Hokkien everyday life.<br><br>4. <strong class="text-strong">Tan Choon Hoe <em class="text-italics">"P.H.D. - Penang Hokkien Dialect"</em></strong><br>While in no sense a scholarly work, this is probably the only published work specifically on the Penang Hokkien dialect in the market to date.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=418">Mark Yong</a> — Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:46 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2008-09-09T09:57:37+00:00</updated>

		<published>2008-09-09T09:57:37+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21547#p21547</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21547#p21547"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Hokkien treet names]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=21547#p21547"><![CDATA[
For anyone who is interested, I have significantly reformatted and updated the Wikipedia article <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_names_of_George_Town,_Penang" class="postlink">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_nam ... wn,_Penang</a>.<br><br>I managed to get hold of the original article from the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, Straits Branch, which had the original Chinese characters and tone markings and explanations of the origins of the streets. Some of the characters I have updated to conform with the Taiwan MoE standard. <br><br>The article also had lots of Hokkien names of government departments, clan associations, buildings, districts, towns outside George Town, etc., but they were outside the scope of the article. If anyone is interested I can email them a scan.<br><br>I would also be grateful if anyone could help me finding references for the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penang_Hokkien" class="postlink">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penang_Hokkien</a> article. Wikipedia now frowns on original research, so all articles must cite references for any significant facts.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:57 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-05-08T16:07:57+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-05-08T16:07:57+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14379#p14379</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14379#p14379"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Hokkien treet names]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14379#p14379"><![CDATA[
墓 is always pronounced as bo`7 in Tang-ua* 同安. According to Douglas', it's also the case for Cuanciu 泉州.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Sun May 08, 2005 4:07 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-05-07T04:53:24+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-05-07T04:53:24+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14323#p14323</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14323#p14323"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Hokkien treet names]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14323#p14323"><![CDATA[
I also heard people saying tiong2 theng 塍? and boo7 as wendu of 墓。I have to say the way china put number for tones are not the same with taiwan.Both have a few methods.One from China just put 7 tones only with no.8.Some taiwanese put 6 numbers only.<br>However,many of the tones I put here are wrong  if we want to learn chuanchiu language.Usually chuanchiu are not supposed to have tone no.7 like words above.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Sat May 07, 2005 4:53 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Mark Yong]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-05-07T04:03:42+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-05-07T04:03:42+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14318#p14318</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14318#p14318"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Hokkien treet names]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14318#p14318"><![CDATA[
Thanks for the replies, Hong and Casey.<br><br>There used to be an old facade for a temple in Penang's Air Itam area called t'i4 kong7 t'ua4 (天公檀). I checked recently - it has been torn down.<br><br>It would be great if the Chinese characters for the street names could be tagged to the street signs in Penang. In certain parts of Singapore, the street signs have this feature (e.g. Cantonment Road has the words 廣東門路 printed below it in slightly smaller print). KL Chinatown area has a similar feature with the old Colonial street names.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=418">Mark Yong</a> — Sat May 07, 2005 4:03 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-05-07T02:50:20+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-05-07T02:50:20+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14295#p14295</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14295#p14295"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Hokkien treet names]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14295#p14295"><![CDATA[
Ĺ(bong7) means a grave or graves.<br>ڣ(tiong2) means a group of graves or a cemetry.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Sat May 07, 2005 2:50 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-05-07T02:43:51+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-05-07T02:43:51+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14294#p14294</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14294#p14294"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Hokkien treet names]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14294#p14294"><![CDATA[
社尾 (sia7 bue2, in ciangciu accent) means end of the village (hiunn1 sia7乡社). One can easily identify the end of a village (depending on the order of development) but not a city which is too big to identify where the end is. Therefore, 社尾 is correct.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Sat May 07, 2005 2:43 am</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-05-06T23:46:57+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-05-06T23:46:57+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14288#p14288</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14288#p14288"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Hokkien treet names]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14288#p14288"><![CDATA[
墓 is baidu bong7.Even leading experts have problem about tone.Some say 1 million chuanchiu city people have 8 tones but some say only 7.Some say 6 tones for huian,jinjiang,etc.It is very hard.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Fri May 06, 2005 11:46 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Mark Yong]]></name></author>
		<updated>2005-05-06T16:01:55+00:00</updated>

		<published>2005-05-06T16:01:55+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14283#p14283</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14283#p14283"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Hokkien treet names]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14283#p14283"><![CDATA[
On the subject of "sia4 boi4"...<br><br>I have often seen Chinese shops signs in Penang referring to the old Prangin Road market area "sia4 boi2" written as 社尾. If Khoo Su Nin's description that the term means "town's end" (in her book "Streets of Penang") is correct, then "sia4" should be 城, not 社. Anyway, the word 社 is pronounced in the 2nd tone (i.e. much higher) and means "society", not "town".<br><br>I always thought the end of Weld Quay was called ang teng kak 紅燈角. However, on my recent trip there, I noticed there were several houses and stone markers with the words 土橋尾 (t'or8 kio5 boi2, or "end of the soil bridge"). Any ideas? Any relation to the kio5 boi2 referring to Noordin Street Ghaut as mentioned?<br><br>I have often heard of "cemetery" being called "bong8" - what is the Hanzi for it? At first, I thought it was 塚 (as seen on the signboard 福健公塚 in Tanjung Tokong), but it appears I am wrong.<br><br>Still fumbling with the tone numbers... learning, learning...<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&amp;u=418">Mark Yong</a> — Fri May 06, 2005 4:01 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2004-12-07T16:32:59+00:00</updated>

		<published>2004-12-07T16:32:59+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=9639#p9639</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=9639#p9639"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Hokkien treet names]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=9639#p9639"><![CDATA[
Hi Hong,<br><br>Quite right, my father knows even less Mandarin than I do! Thanks for the explanation on "hang".<br><br>Sim.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:32 pm</p><hr />
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	</entry>
		<entry>
		<author><name><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></name></author>
		<updated>2004-12-07T11:57:10+00:00</updated>

		<published>2004-12-07T11:57:10+00:00</published>
		<id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=9638#p9638</id>
		<link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=9638#p9638"/>
		<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Hokkien treet names]]></title>

		
		<content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=9638#p9638"><![CDATA[
Sim, <br>Your father doesn't know  haniz if I am not mistaked.hang is mandarin xiang = 巷 .If you type this hanzi and select mandarin in online dict you will get hang a   for small street and hang a khau/thau  for port/harbor  etc.<p>Statistics: Posted by Guest — Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:57 am</p><hr />
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