<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xml:lang="en-gb"> <link rel="self" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/app.php/feed/topic/11393" /> <title>Chinese languages</title> <subtitle>Chinese languages</subtitle> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/index.php" /> <updated>2013-01-03T05:17:58+00:00</updated> <author><name><![CDATA[Chinese languages]]></name></author> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/app.php/feed/topic/11393</id> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[ahkiao]]></name></author> <updated>2013-01-03T05:17:58+00:00</updated> <published>2013-01-03T05:17:58+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85458#p85458</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85458#p85458"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85458#p85458"><![CDATA[ Hi, I'm not sure how relevant this is to you now, but I have a CD of the recordings of the tones of Amoy Hokkien. It came with a book I bought in Xiamen, 闽南话教程 by 林宝卿 i believe. My dad believes it is definitely amoy hokkien (he is a native amoy hokkien speaker, and moved to singapore later in his teen years). <br>If you're not able to find a recording of it online, perhaps i could send you the clip if its allowed.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=16577">ahkiao</a> — Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:17 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[SimL]]></name></author> <updated>2012-10-31T03:49:52+00:00</updated> <published>2012-10-31T03:49:52+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85330#p85330</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85330#p85330"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85330#p85330"><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Not at all Sim, I suppose I was thinking of how often people with no POJ (or other system) write -k for the -h ending, But this probably has more to do with Malay spelling than not making a distinction.</div></blockquote>Ahhhh! I see what you mean now. Yes, definitely. Influenced by Malay spelling, many Malaysians often conflate these two final Hokkien consonants when writing, as "-k". My "Tua Peh" for most of his life signed himself as "Tua Pek" in letters and mails to me, but in the past few years, has actually used "Tua Peh" once or twice, under my influence <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green">.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=977">SimL</a> — Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:49 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[Ah-bin]]></name></author> <updated>2012-10-30T22:11:17+00:00</updated> <published>2012-10-30T22:11:17+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85328#p85328</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85328#p85328"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85328#p85328"><![CDATA[ Not at all Sim, I suppose I was thinking of how often people with no POJ (or other system) write -k for the -h ending, But this probably has more to do with Malay spelling than not making a distinction. <br><br>As for the change in tone on a words such as kah and bah, I think that is probably old-fashioned; i.e. used in Malaysia more by older native Hokkien speakers (from China) than younger native speakers of Penang-style Hokkien. The Wikipedia article should reflect this, I think.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1174">Ah-bin</a> — Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:11 pm</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[SimL]]></name></author> <updated>2012-10-30T07:38:56+00:00</updated> <published>2012-10-30T07:38:56+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85326#p85326</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85326#p85326"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85326#p85326"><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Sometimes I also wonder whether people are distinguishing -h and -k at all.</div></blockquote>In final position, I certainly distinguish them:<br><br>- ah4 (duck) vs. ak4 (to water plants)<br>- kah4 (to teach / instruct) vs. kak4 (horn, e.g. of a goat or cow)<br>- sek8 (ripe) vs. seh8 (to go riding around in a car)<br><br>Is this old-fashioned?<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=977">SimL</a> — Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:38 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[Ah-bin]]></name></author> <updated>2012-10-28T23:09:01+00:00</updated> <published>2012-10-28T23:09:01+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85319#p85319</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85319#p85319"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85319#p85319"><![CDATA[ Thanks so much Amhoanna. It's nice to have confirmation of these things. I think the Wikipedia page should also reflect the reality of the situation, i.e. that Northern Malaysian Hokkien has a tone system that is vastly simplified compared to other varieties. <br><br>Ah-long has also noted a higher tone 55 in borrowed words such as the final particle me• (this would be your friend's 高陰入 but it is not always a and a few colloquial onomatapoeic words, but basically (if you do what Cantonese textbooks do, and base the number of tones on the sounds rather than the traditional tone categories, then you have only four basic tones: <br><br>A mid level tone (1 - long and 8- short)<br>A mid rising tone (5)<br>A high rising/falling tone (depends on the speaker, 2 on the chart) <br>A low falling tone (3, and 4 - long and 7- short)<br><br>I feel I've missed something here....<br><br>As for the Sandhied versions. I would say,<br><br>3 ONLY becomes 1, never 2<br>4 only becomes 8, never 2 and the distinction in other Hokkien dialects between k,t,p endings and h ending no longer exists. I have had one person tell me that only people who speak Hokkien poorly say khe•h-lâng 客儂 as "Khé•h+lâng" whereas it should be "Khé•+lâng" (as in Taiwanese, with a slightly different vowel and sandhi) but I don't believe I have ever heard a native speaker of Penang Hokkien (even the one who told me) drop the glottal stop in a word like this unconsciously. The only places I have heard it dropped are chiá(h)-lát 食力 and lāu-joá(h) 鬧熱 which ends up sounding like lāu-joa instead. <br><br>Sometimes I also wonder whether people are distinguishing -h and -k at all.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1174">Ah-bin</a> — Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:09 pm</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[amhoanna]]></name></author> <updated>2012-10-28T11:51:40+00:00</updated> <published>2012-10-28T11:51:40+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85318#p85318</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85318#p85318"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=85318#p85318"><![CDATA[ Since accurate info on Penang Hokkien tone contours is kind of hard to come by, I decided to tackle the issue with a Kedah native as informant. This is what came of it: <a href="http://banlam.tawa.asia/2012/10/beima-shengdiao-tones-penang-hokkien.html" class="postlink">http://banlam.tawa.asia/2012/10/beima-s ... kkien.html</a><br><br>Just now, I found Ah-bin's contour chart, buried in a random thread: <a href="http://www.chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11366&p=35264&hilit=+pghk+tones+21#p35264" class="postlink">http://www.chineselanguage.org/forums/v ... +21#p35264</a><br>... for those that don't mind the 3-level "tonemic" approach.<br><br>Regarding 33 vs. 44, my informant said he used to think it was 33, but now he thinks it's 44.<br><br>He also crafted a chart himself: <a href="http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/75146_10151210733512996_1646234305_n.jpg" class="postlink">http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-a ... 4305_n.jpg</a><p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7909">amhoanna</a> — Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:51 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[Ah-bin]]></name></author> <updated>2011-05-05T10:25:25+00:00</updated> <published>2011-05-05T10:25:25+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35433#p35433</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35433#p35433"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35433#p35433"><![CDATA[ Ah, this person was an expert on tone, but not on Hoklo tone!<br><br>It's unlikely that the tones in Hokkien developed on their own, if that were the case, there wouldn't be any correspondences between the tone classes in other Sinitic languages or the old Sinitic loans in Vietnamese.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1174">Ah-bin</a> — Thu May 05, 2011 10:25 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[amhoanna]]></name></author> <updated>2011-05-04T19:24:05+00:00</updated> <published>2011-05-04T19:24:05+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35426#p35426</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35426#p35426"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35426#p35426"><![CDATA[ This means he posits a "proto-Hoklo" or proto-what-have-you language that had tones, but not sandhi? <br><br>Isn't it possible that proto-Hoklo or Proto-Min developed tone sandhi at the same time that it developed tones? <br><br>I'm out of my range here... I'm sure much has already been established concerning tonogenesis and Old Chinese. <br><br>Also there's the "problem" of alternative theories to Stammbaum. I saw a dense and possibly very sophisticated article in a journal at the book mall last week that identified three "theories" or "patterns" of relative linguistic evolution, one of them being Stammbaum, another being 触 something, and a third I can't remember. (It was written in Mandarin.)<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7909">amhoanna</a> — Wed May 04, 2011 7:24 pm</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[Ah-bin]]></name></author> <updated>2011-05-03T18:20:31+00:00</updated> <published>2011-05-03T18:20:31+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35409#p35409</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35409#p35409"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35409#p35409"><![CDATA[ I did ask the linguist, and the answer was that it was possible that some of the sandhied tones preserved the original tone contours better then the unsandhied tones (and he shook his head disparagingly at the terms "running" and "standing"). So I suppose if that were the case you could say the citation tone contours diverged more from the originals than the sandhied tones.<br><br>In which case, my closed mindedness was not completely justified, and I apologise for it!<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1174">Ah-bin</a> — Tue May 03, 2011 6:20 pm</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[AndrewAndrew]]></name></author> <updated>2011-05-01T16:15:24+00:00</updated> <published>2011-05-01T16:15:24+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35397#p35397</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35397#p35397"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35397#p35397"><![CDATA[ The classic tone wheel works for Amoy Hokkien, but not necessarily for other variants. E.g. for Penang Hokkien (which incidentally shares "distinct in sandhi but not in citation form" issue with Chiangchiu, not Choanchiu - see Douglas, who mentions the issue - in some variants of Choanchiu, there is no Yinqu/Yangqu distinction at all), the wheel is simply 1->7->3->1, with two one-way branches 2->1 and 5->7, and an isolated 4<->8 line.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7712">AndrewAndrew</a> — Sun May 01, 2011 4:15 pm</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[amhoanna]]></name></author> <updated>2011-05-01T15:17:35+00:00</updated> <published>2011-05-01T15:17:35+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35396#p35396</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35396#p35396"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35396#p35396"><![CDATA[ To clarify: by "twin dialects", I meant the Amoy dialect of Amoy and the Amoy dialect of Taiwan.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7909">amhoanna</a> — Sun May 01, 2011 3:17 pm</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[amhoanna]]></name></author> <updated>2011-05-01T15:21:31+00:00</updated> <published>2011-05-01T15:10:17+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35395#p35395</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35395#p35395"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35395#p35395"><![CDATA[ Cool, Ah-bin! <br><br>Vaskimies-- <br><br>Since U're no stranger to tone sandhi, Banlam (Minnan)-type sandhi will be a snap. The basic rule is: <br><br>a) The last syllable in a "sandhi group", or "phrase" -- I think the pros might have a better word for this -- takes its citation tone. <br><br>b) All other syllables in the group take their "running", or "sandhi'd", tone. <br><br>The biggest challenge as a learner is to get a sense for when a sandhi group ends. As a rule, the last syllable of a noun will end its sandhi group -- when it's not being used as an adjective. <br><br>Banlam tone sandhi is "sandhi lite" compared to what exists in Eastern Min. Shanghainese tone sandhi works differently, and seems pretty complicated. <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>I'm curious though, do the tones really vary that much from dialect to dialect, for example Penang to Amoy, that no recording would work for every dialect (or at least most of them)? I know that words are going to take on different tones in different dialects and I'm guessing they also sandhi differently depending on dialect as well, but I'm talking about the tones themselves. Is á really pronounced that different in Xiamen than it is in for example Taiwan that I would need separate recordings for both dialects?</div></blockquote>The short answer is that U may need different recordings for each dialect. It depends which ones U're interested in. <br><br>Amoy and "Mainstream Taiwanese" (and some Ciangciu dialects, inc. what I've heard of Cebu Hokkien) happen to be "tonally similar". The Amoy dialect is actually mirrored on Taiwan by "the Amoy dialect of Taiwan" -- the dialect of the river-port districts of Taipak (Taibei). Most music was recorded in this dialect up till pretty recently. Twenty years ago, young Taiwanese people generally spoke Mainstream Taiwanese, but sang in Amoy Taiwanese (shades of South Vietnam). These "twin" dialects are a product of a certain era of sea-borne trade and migration which coincided with the rise of Amoy as a big-time port, and the commercialization of northern Formosa. I think lots of older people speak this dialect in Singapore too -- somebody correct me if I'm mistaken. So, it's the most "urban" of all Hoklo dialects. Very few people under 30 are speaking it nowadays, though.<br><br>Contour-wise, Coanciu-type dialects, some Ciangciu-type dialects and Penang (generally considered a Ciangciu-type dialect) will differ wildly from Amoy/Taiwan. Just search on this forum for posts on the tones of Bagansiapiapi Hokkien (Sumatra)!! By far the biggest differences between dialects lie in vocab, though. And there's not really a "standard dialect" at this point.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7909">amhoanna</a> — Sun May 01, 2011 3:10 pm</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[Ah-bin]]></name></author> <updated>2011-05-01T12:53:21+00:00</updated> <published>2011-05-01T12:53:21+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35393#p35393</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35393#p35393"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35393#p35393"><![CDATA[ Well I lost my long reply, and I can't be bothered writing it all out again. <br><br>The basic jist of it was that the first syllable in the word usually pronounced "am-mo" derives from "ang" = red. "ang" does not derive from "am". The shift from ang to am is because the second syllable begins with a bilabial. In the same way, sandhied tones in Hokkien derive from citation tones, and shift their contours because they are followed by another syllable in a compound. <br><br>In Choan-chiu and Penang the citation tones for T3 and T7 have merged, but their sandhied forms are still distinct. The fact that T3 and T7 are distinct in other varieties of Hokkien and in many other SInitic languages points to the originals being distinct in the ancestor varieties of Penang and Choan-chiu. They retained their distinction because it was retained in compound words, and people pronounced new compounds by analogy. It is extremely unlikely that Penang and Choan-chiu preserve some ancient original tonal system from which all other Sinitic languages have diverged. <br><br>I'll admit that I'm not open-minded about it, but I'll go and ask a friend of mine who is an expert in tone sandhi and see what he says.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1174">Ah-bin</a> — Sun May 01, 2011 12:53 pm</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[vaskimies]]></name></author> <updated>2011-05-01T08:19:43+00:00</updated> <published>2011-05-01T08:19:43+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35392#p35392</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35392#p35392"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35392#p35392"><![CDATA[ Thank you for the helpful responses everyone. Ah-bin has sent me a recording of the tones.<br><br>I'm curious though, do the tones really vary that much from dialect to dialect, for example Penang to Amoy, that no recording would work for every dialect (or at least most of them)? I know that words are going to take on different tones in different dialects and I'm guessing they also sandhi differently depending on dialect as well, but I'm talking about the tones themselves. Is á really pronounced that different in Xiamen than it is in for example Taiwan that I would need separate recordings for both dialects?<br><br>Furthermore, I'm familiar with the concept of tone sandhi (although have yet to learn it for this language) and I believe the deal in Amoy (or Min Nan as a whole) is that the syllables of a word pronounced in isolation are going to have a certain contour, whereas in a sentence, the tone of the syllable that follows is going to affect and change the tone of the preceding syllable, all depending on the aforementioned wheel. Okay, so with a "compound" word like "siaⁿ-tiāu" with the 1st tone on the first syllable and the 7th on the second syllable, has the tone of "siaⁿ" been sandhi'd by "tiāu" already, or will it sandhi to tone 7 once it gets placed in a sentence OR does it not sandhi at all because both syllables make up a single word? <img class="smilies" src="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif" width="15" height="15" alt=":D" title="Very Happy"> Confusing question, that was.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7681">vaskimies</a> — Sun May 01, 2011 8:19 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> <entry> <author><name><![CDATA[amhoanna]]></name></author> <updated>2011-05-01T04:31:25+00:00</updated> <published>2011-05-01T04:31:25+00:00</published> <id>http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35390#p35390</id> <link href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35390#p35390"/> <title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?]]></title> <content type="html" xml:base="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35390#p35390"><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>I think the proof comes from that most of the sandhied tones occur in isolated syllables as unsandhied tones, and that the sandhied tones can all be predicted from the unsandhied tones, and from comparison with other Chinese languages. </div></blockquote>Well, Penang and Coanciu speakers actually have to go to the "sandhied" tone to tell T3 from T7, right? Or are U talking about something else? <br><br>I remain open-minded to the <strong class="text-strong">possibility</strong> that the citation tones somehow spawned the running tones...<br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Hmmm...well I think I'll stick to the terms linguists use to describe sandhi, even if just to keep people as far away as possible from from the influence of tadpolenese.</div></blockquote>Come on now. <br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>If Hokkien was written like that, I don't think I would have tried to learn it. </div></blockquote>Actually, I "feel" the same way. In real life, though, Hokkien is barely written at all. Ta̍kgê còhoé lâi siá Ho̍hlóbûn! <br><br>逐에做伙來寫허러文!<br><br>No, I haven't figured out a good way to lay the tones on with Hangeul.<p>Statistics: Posted by <a href="http://chineselanguage.org/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7909">amhoanna</a> — Sun May 01, 2011 4:31 am</p><hr /> ]]></content> </entry> </feed>